8mm Forum: Have you ever actually had vinegar syndrome?

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Topic: Have you ever actually had vinegar syndrome?

Jan Bister
Darth 8mm

Posts: 2629
From: Ohio, USA
Registered: Jan 2005

posted April 04, 2005 10:57 PM

Well, not YOU of course... but rather, have you ever had (or do you currently have) any FILM with vinegar syndrome? That is, with a very distinct, unmistakable vinegar smell?

If so, what did you do/are you doing about it? Do you clean/lubricate the film and hope it stays around for a while? Hope that the actual image quality remains OK for a while as well? How much longer will it last before it completely falls apart? Does VS affect magnetic soundtracks in any way?

And in regard to VS film "infecting" non-VS film stored nearby: fact or myth? Where does truth end and fiction (i.e. paranoia) begin?

And why am I asking all these questions? Well, I just won a full-length Blackhawk print of Chaplin's GOLD RUSH on eBay which arrived tonight in the mail... and it smells of vinegar. [Frown]

I've already contacted the seller about arranging a return/refund and all that... but I just got curious as to just what one does with a VS print, whether there's still any use to it or whether it should just be "chucked."

All comments and opinions welcome. [Cool]

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Call me Phoenix. *dusts off the ashes*

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Gary Crawford
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 979
From: Manassas, VA. USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted April 05, 2005 10:29 AM

Jan.... I've only had two vinegar prints in 37 years of collecting films. No super 8 or regular 8 prints .... I bought one 16mm feature, THEM, at a convention three years ago....we knew it had some vinegar...but the price was cheap..the print was wonderful and it ran fine. I have kept the film out in the air....no cans wound it well...treated it with some film renew....and it still smells a bit, but it is not warped ..and it runs great. I'm definitly getting my moneys worth out of it.

The other print I got on ebay....Castle's News Parade of 1949....for $9.95. The seller didn't know what he had...but when I got it ...whew!! and it was so warped, you could see the deep hills and valleys right on the reel. I've followed the recommended procedure...wound it tails out reverse ....on a metal reel....and it is soaking now in a big film can full of Film Renew. It may relax it enough to allow a screening . We shall see.
One thing to remember...most super 8 prints are , compared to 16mm ....fairly recent . To have vinegar they would have to have really been stored in a terrible terrible environment... You did not state the Gold Rush was 8mm...but I assume it was since you are on this forum...but at any rate....it's really rare in 8mm.
Sometimes....we mistake vinegar smell for the smell put out by a print recently cleaned with Vitafilm, or Film Renew.

At any rate, I'd ask the seller about the background of the print...how it was stored..it's history.....( some ebay sellers don't know ANY thing about film)...but it's worth a try. Let someone else smell the print...don't tell them what you think it smells like....and see if it's really vinegar you are smelling.
If you decide to keep the print....don't store it in cans ...let it breathe. What happens is that the acetic acid and gas that the film is emitting is a result of a chemical breakdown.....which feeds on itself. The more acetic acid arouind that print..the more the reaction is produced....and on and on. That's why many experts say to keep vinegar prints away from others...so that the gas emitted doesn't trigger a reaction in another print.

I hope I've been of help.

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Jim Schrader
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1628
From: Savage, MN, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted April 05, 2005 12:25 PM

I have also heard to, is to watch it often run it through the projector the lamps heat helps to not sure if this is true maybe someeone here can confirm this. [Wink]

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jim schrader
"Let's see “do I have that title already?"

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Kevin Faulkner
Film God

Posts: 4071
From: Essex UK
Registered: Jun 2003

posted April 05, 2005 05:37 PM

I have never seen (smelt) an 8mm print with VS only on 16mm. I have smelt acetic acid smells on some 8mm b/w prints but because the prints were in such good condition, have put it down to the residual smells of processing. Having worked in the Photo industry all my life I can say that the smell of residual fix on a film is different to the smell of VS. VS has a very strong pungent acid smell to it ( a very acid vinegar) and the base of the film feels sort of unnaturally flexible almost rubbery.
A slight gentle smell could be processing.
In super 8's heyday it wasnt unherad of labs pushing up processing speeds and temperatures to get more film throughput but the downside is a reduced wash at the end of the cycle.
I'm sorry Jan but it's very difficult to put into words the differance in the smells but only to say that there is a differance.
I have a copy of "BlackHawks" Way out west which had this slight smell. I lubed the film and left it out of the box and the smell went away.
Some people say that a film with VS should not be projected as it contaminates the film path in the projector and can pass it onto the next film etc.
This area is a very difficult one.

Kev.

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GS1200 Xenon with Elmo 1.0...great combo along with a 16-CL Xenon for that super bright white light.

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Steven Sigel
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 701
From: Massachusetts
Registered: Jun 2003

posted April 05, 2005 05:48 PM

Here's some info on Vinegar. There's a lot of mis-information and hysteria out there, so hopefully this will help

1) Vinegar syndrome is caused by the break down of the acetate film base of an acetate print into acetic acid. The "syndrome" occurs when the reaction becomes self-catalyzing and is no longer reversible.

2) Mylar/Estar prints cannot get vinegar. Full Stop. So no worries there. A lot of the newer super 8 prints are printed on mylar/estar, so you wont have to worry about any of those prints

3) Vinegar is very very rare. I've never had a print go vinegar that didn't already smell when I got it.

4) Prints that were treated with "rejuventation" chemicals (scratch removal and the like) are far more likely to go vinegar. This may be because a lot of these processes involved an acetic acid bath. Super 8 prints are less likely to have been treated - so this may account for the fact that it's even more rare in s8

5) Acetate film is the same regardless of gague, so with the exception of the way it's been treated and stored, super 8 acetate prints have an equal likelyhood of going vinegar as 16mm. There is no inherent difference (modulo the rejeuventation I mentioned)

6) Older Di-Acetate prints (pre 1950s) tend to develop a moth ball like smell. This appears to be harmless.

7) Blue track IB Tech prints (Also di-acetate from the 1940s) often develop a "vomit" smell. This also appears harmless.

8) A vinegar film is NOT going to contaminate your film projector. BUT - you should clean the film path after every film anyway, so any acetic acid residue will come off with a cleaning.

9) Storing VS films away from non VS films is a good idea -- in theory, you can infect a non-vs print by keeping it in close proximimity to a VS print -- but it doesn't happen over night. Generally so long as the reaction has not become self-catalyzing, the non-vs print can be aired out and wont smell anymore

10) Films stored in hot/humid climates tends to develop VS more frequently than films stored in cool/dry places. Films stored on Metal reels tend to fare worse than plastic (metal seems to help catalyze the reaction).

Hope this is helpful.

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Jan Bister
Darth 8mm

Posts: 2629
From: Ohio, USA
Registered: Jan 2005

posted April 05, 2005 07:04 PM

You guys are absolutely fantastic, all of you. What a wealth of information. [Smile]

To answer some questions that were brought up, the print in question is a Blackhawk super-8 (magnetic sound) film on 4x400' plastic reels. The seller himself (he goes by the name of 'nitratefury') restores old nitrate films for a living so he probably knows about the stuff he sells. He did email me agreeing to fully refund my winning bid upon my sending the film back to him, and mentioned that he simply failed to check for any vinegar smell (but his auction did state that the print had been "stored for a very long time and should be lubricated before running.")

I guess for now I will OPEN the box the reels are sitting in so it can air out just a little bit. I might treat one of the reels with FilmRenew and see if that helps - maybe the seller is willing to partially refund my money if I do decide to keep this print. Oh, and for me to smell any vinegar odor I do have to stick my nose into the sides of each reel, but then it's very noticeable. [Big Grin]

So things might not be all that bad after all, huh? Thanks to all of you [Smile]

and I'll post back later with updates [Smile]

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Call me Phoenix. *dusts off the ashes*

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Jan Bister
Darth 8mm

Posts: 2629
From: Ohio, USA
Registered: Jan 2005

posted April 07, 2005 06:20 AM

I decided to keep the print and made a deal with the seller to get half of my purchase price refunded, which he did. The reels are sitting out in the open, and although I've yet to get around to treating them with FilmRenew (darn that full-time job of mine), I'm happy to report that the vinegar smell seems to be letting up already, it's not quite as strong now. The film itself doesn't feel gooey to the touch, and I even screened a minute of one of the reels and found the image quality to be excellent - typical Blackhawk quality. (btw - I ran the film on my Bauer projector, not the Elmo. The Bauer needs a good cleaning anyway...)
Long story short, there's a happy end to this story. [Smile]

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Call me Phoenix. *dusts off the ashes*

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Mark Todd
Film God

Posts: 3846
From: UK
Registered: Aug 2003

posted April 07, 2005 09:17 AM

I`ve had it on 16mm once, super 8 once( just starting but super whiffy, wow,) and std 8mm( well on the way)
If I get any suggestion of it I just bin it now or send back, especially after the std 8 experiance where I stored it away and breathing, and checking back about 6 months later it had really gone for it and was going a right old whiffy mess.
As said its pretty rare on 8mm or super 8 but if you do get it you really now about it.
Personally I wouldn`t run a vinegar copy through a machine I was going to run non vinegar prints through as I tend to be very cautious.
Mylar or polyester wise I have had a print with something very like it, no smell but the film was going sticky and gooey on the emulsion and the inch long spot it did it on was working down through the reel underneath it if you will through the other layer of film underneath it so as you would it off you kept coming to the next spot of it.That was an old but new sealed 200 super 8 manetic feet print. Very odd,Bin!!!!!
Best Mark.

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Jan Bister
Darth 8mm

Posts: 2629
From: Ohio, USA
Registered: Jan 2005

posted April 07, 2005 06:05 PM

Hmm, well, it's been mentioned here that mylar/polyester prints CANNOT develop vinegar syndrome, so in your case maybe that was water damage brought on by storing that sealed box improperly (humid basement maybe?) and that's what would have damaged the neighboring layers of film on the reel. Seems to me that actual VS occurs more evenly spread over the entire film.

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Call me Phoenix. *dusts off the ashes*

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Tony Milman
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1336
From: United Kingdom
Registered: Jun 2003

posted April 10, 2005 03:11 AM

Jan

I have had a couple of prints, one from Derann, that I was worried about because as you said if you held the film to your nose there was an acetic smell. I took the 16mm back to Derann who were very helpful and re-assured me that what I could smell was processing residue and not vinegar.
The other cam from the US and had the same problem but more pronounced though you still had to get up close to experience it.
When I actually compared the odour to that of malt vinegar I could detect a distinct difference. The odour from the reels is acetic yes but not vinegary. It did remind me of the smell of film fixer that I used years ago. As a precaution I have kept the films apart but they run fine and don't seem to be worsening.
I think that we do worry a little too much about this issue though on ebay buyer beware, at least with dealers like Perry's and Derann you know they won't let you down, even if they do get it wrong.

Enjoy

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Tony

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Jan Bister
Darth 8mm

Posts: 2629
From: Ohio, USA
Registered: Jan 2005

posted April 10, 2005 08:51 AM

Well, my story has a happy end... instead of vinegar, the reels now smell like FilmRenew, and the vinegar smell has not returned. If there really is some other kind of film cleaner that smells like vinegar I want to know its name!! [Roll Eyes]

Now all I need is *sigh* more 800ft and 1200ft reels...argh...

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Call me Phoenix. *dusts off the ashes*

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