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Topic: Osi, where are you????
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Christian Bjorgen
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 996
From: Kvinnherad, Norway
Registered: Oct 2009
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posted March 06, 2010 12:19 PM
This is a great forum, really. But these issues with Kevin, Osi and Paul are just plain stupidity. Currently, I'm the moderator on three different forums, one of them is Norways biggest IT-forums, with more than 10 000 readers daily. So believe you me, I know alot about forums.
Kevin and Brad disagreed on a few things, I won't go into details as I don't know them, but it eventually resulted in Kevin making his own forum, which I for obvious reasons wont link to here.
But that's fair, everyones entitled to their own opinions and stuff, but I'm fairly pissed by the treatment that Kevin, Osi and Paul has gotten, and the treatment his new forum has gotten.
It's an ally, not the enemy. So seriously, reconsider their suspension, and start treating them like friends. They formed an alternative forum, not a rival.
I know I might get banned for this, but quite frankly, I don't care. At least then have the decency to let my post be here, unedited, the way I wrote it.
We're not bloody fascists, there is such a thing as freedom of speech, and the day we lose the right to say our opinion on this forum, well, then you can kiss my arse goodbye anyway.
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Well who’s on first? Yeah. Go ahead and tell me. Who. The guy on first. Who. The guy playin’ first base. Who. The guy on first. Who is on first! What are you askin’ me for? I’m askin’ you!
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Winbert Hutahaean
Film God
Posts: 5468
From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
Registered: Jun 2003
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posted March 07, 2010 07:37 AM
Hi guys,
I slightly understand know for the reason why Osi and Paul are out now (an additional information provided by Doug later on will of course make everything clear).
I am still in the position to kindly ask the moderators to allow those persons posting again here.
But at the same time, I also hate to find when I am googling one key word I end up in many links which when I visit them one by one, they are all just the same (this is mostly because many people writing by cut and paste strategy). It is wasting my time, my bandwidth and my money too.
So, I can understand why this forum owner restrict people to double posting for the very same topic (cut and paste strategy).
For Osi and Paul, please understand too that although you are the writer for those writings, if you do this in a magazine, it does not mean you can put your writings in other magazine without the concern of the first one (an "OK" word must be received before submitting to different place).
When you submit your writings to a magazine, it does mean you have surrendered half of your rights to the said magazine (no matters it is free or paid writers).
You can find the said fine print statement in all magazines (or perhaps now also in online magazines)
I think we have to take a moderate way that will be a win-win solution.
I understand asking those writers to pull out those "cut and paste" posts they have done in the new forum will be almost impossible (ego is always number one, that always happens to me too). While without doing this Brad will not allow they return to this forum.
So the middle way that I can think about is if Osi and Paul make excerpt for every writing in the new forum instead of full writing and/or link to this forum for the full writings. This in one side will make the writings a bit different and on the other side will show how the new forum and this forum have a strong relations by linking one to the other.
Will that be OK for you Osi, Paul, Doug and Brad?
To be honest, I received an email from one of the banned person mentioning that how he missed to write in this forum. And I really want to bring them back to write in this forum again.
One last thing, I should re-underline again that "intellectual property" does not mean you can write the same matters at different places without the concern of the first place you write that one.
peace, ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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Winbert
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Keith Ashfield
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 997
From: U.K.
Registered: Dec 2006
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posted March 07, 2010 10:02 AM
quote:
One last thing, I should re-underline again that "intellectual property" does not mean you can write the same matters at different places without the concern of the first place you write that one.
I think you will find you can if you change the wording slightly.
I do not wish to enter into a "heated debate" but I think the issue has been blown out of all proportion, by an action that, IMHO, should have been dealt with by a "polite reprimand".
quote:
I also hate to find when I am googling one key word I end up in many links which when I visit them one by one, they are all just the same (this is mostly because many people writing by cut and paste strategy). It is wasting my time, my bandwidth and my money too.
Winbert, why "google" anything for 'Super 8'? If it's not on the available forums then it most likely not available any place. There is a "search facility" exclusive to the forums that enables you to find what you need. (if you "google DVD" then yes I can understand the number of options you will get, but Super 8 or 16mm????)
Enough said from me.
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"We'll find 'em in the end, I promise you. We'll find 'em. Just as sure as a turnin' of the earth".
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Douglas Meltzer
Moderator
Posts: 4554
From: New York, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003
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posted March 07, 2010 05:39 PM
Let’s start off with a fact: This Forum has been a successful, friendly and civil place for years. Two components are responsible for that success. First, the members, a knowledgeable, personable, helpful and fairly photogenic group of 8mm, 16mm & 9.5mm loving scamps. The other integral part has been the site policies that have been in place since the Forum began. Brad has run numerous forums over the years and his experience has shown him what works and what does not. There are common sense rules (no personal attacks, no religion, no politics) and rules that help members navigate through postings (no teaser subject headers). If a rule is violated, the result (depending on the rule) can range from a courtesy warning to outright removal from the Forum.
Upon registering, every member of this Forum had to pass through this page:
“If you agree to abide by our rules below, please press the Agree button, which will enable you to register on this message board. If you do not agree to these terms, press the Cancel button.”
Since you’re all here, you obviously clicked on “Agree”.
Next stop on our tour is the start of the Forum in 2001. When asked how the 8mm Forum got started, Brad posted “Another film collector site out there was scamming their members by tricking them into ‘donating’ to the owner of the site, as he claimed it cost him bazillions to keep the site online, even though after a quick bit of research proved it was in fact costing him $7/month. Seeing the collectors get suckered angered me quite a bit, so I opened up this offshoot of www.film-tech.com purely for collectors and let it run.”
For the almost eight years that I’ve been a member (over five of them as moderator with Kevin), I’m constantly amazed at how smoothly this Forum runs. Occasionally there would be a flare-up, sometimes a flame over film vs. video projection(!) but Kevin and I used to joke about how the Forum basically ran itself because of the great people who post here.
Now we jump to September 2009 and the only time Brad did something that took me aback. There was now a header on the Forum that appeared to be an ad for film piracy, with an ex-member’s contact info listed. As a result of some off Forum communications, an altercation arose between this person and Brad. Kevin took offense at how it was handled. Now one could easily make the case that Brad (who privately owns, funds and operates this Forum and is the administrator, not a member) can do as he wishes. It was a very uncomfortable period for me as well.
Kevin left as moderator (but remained a member) on 11/3/09 and returned on 1/9/10. Kevin found he still had differences with Brad and on 1/26 he started his own forum, left the moderator position, and left it up to Brad to decide if Kevin could continue as a member.
Brad thanked Kev for the “excellent job” he had done over the years and told him he was still a member.
Now we get to Osi! Osi wanted to get Kev’s new forum off to a jump start, so he copied all of his 8mm Forum reviews and pasted them on Kev’s site. Ouch. The rules clearly state (and have stated for almost ten years) that cross-posting is not tolerated. “If you make a post on Film-Tech first, then make the same post on another website, you will be requested via email to delete the post of yours on the other website…..”
Brad e-mailed Osi asking him to remove the reviews. Osi chose not to. Consequently Osi was removed from the 8mm Forum.
Paul had seen Osi posting his old reviews so he did the same. Brad e-mailed Paul asking him to remove the reviews. Paul chose not to. Consequently Paul was removed from the 8mm Forum.
How do I feel about this? Terrible! But really, what is the use of having the same posts on two different forums? Different sites should have different postings. As I wrote to Kev, "I believe either forum isn't served well by having duplicate posts. Each site needs original postings of its own, with their own personality. Even though we'll all undoubtedly cover many of the same topics, it's each member that puts his/her own spin on that topic. Why would I subscribe to two magazines that have identical articles?"
To complicate matters, Osi included Brad's e-mail in one of his posts on Kevin's website. From our rules: "Quoting other people's emails. DO NOT DO THIS EVER! Emails are private conversations between people and will not be tolerated if any part of them or all of them are posted here or elsewhere unless the author has given specific permission to reproduce it. Expect to be banned and your post deleted if you ever do this. There is no tolerance with this.” Aside from our rules, posting private emails in any form on the web is the biggest breach of Net Etiquette there is.
Brad requested that Kevin remove the personal e-mail from his website. The e-mail remained, so consequently Kevin was removed from the 8mm Forum.
There you have it. Three members banned not for stating their opinions (I’d like to know who made up that story), but for violating clearly specified rules. All involved were given a chance to remedy the situation, but declined to do so. Whether one agrees now with the rules is a moot point. You agreed to them when you registered.
Can they come back? I would guess that if Osi and Paul deleted the copied reviews they could start posting here again. Kevin is busy running his own site, but I miss his input.
Just one more point I need to make. Kevin is a friend and one of the most knowledgeable people I know of in our little world of Super 8mm. Brad (in addition to his cinema projection expertise) has run this great Forum for many years at his own expense (there has never been any advertising) and he has kept the entire archive intact rather than deleting the older topics. This has been for the benefit of the members and the entire 8mm community. The hobby is fortunate to have them both.
Doug
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I think there's room for just one more film.....
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Winbert Hutahaean
Film God
Posts: 5468
From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
Registered: Jun 2003
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posted March 07, 2010 06:38 PM
quote:
Winbert, why "google" anything for 'Super 8'? If it's not on the available forums then it most likely not available any place.
Keith, I was talking something in general, not only 8mm things. Try to google (e.g) "2012 film review". You will get too many results with the same article. It is just a headache to find where is the original. OK let us not go further with this, because this is going to be really out of topic.
Doug,
Nice and clear explanation. As my opinion above, I strongly agree with no-duplicate postings (based on my knowledge that is not fair to have same article in two different magazines, even though that is a free magazine).
I, at the same time, also still kindly request that Osi and Paul can return here. You have mentioned that this is possible.
Now, it is hard to mediate this in this open forum because it will involve other voices that won't help.
Will you allow me to mediate this between you and these 2 person via private mail? I will take a position as a mediator and all of you can rely me taking this job (especially for those who know what is my real job).
If you give me a green light, I will start shoot an email privately with them and open a discussion with you also via PM? I am waiting you response.
regards
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Winbert
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Roy Neil
Expert Film Handler
Posts: 203
From: Menlo Park, CA
Registered: Sep 2007
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posted March 07, 2010 08:10 PM
Thanks for shedding light on the situation Doug; I am probably not the only one who was wondering what transpired, and there were a lot of rumors and conflicting stories flying around - Thanks for setting the record straight.
I have to comment that I personally believe the forum rules are one of the main reasons this forum runs itself ( as you and Kevin noted )
Furthermore, I dont know about any other members - but to be honest - the whole 'Piracy' posting of Brad's did not bother me at all. On the contrary, all it did was made me chuckle and sparked my curiosity as to what had happened.
I haven't time to be a member of multiple forums, I have enough problems trying to 'keep up' as it is. I wish Kevin success with his new forum, however, I wish there was a way to keep us all in 'one' forum instead of fracturing the community ... makes life much easier and its 'better' for the hobby.
Lastly, I want to extend my personal thanks and gratitude to Brad Miller. He hasn't asked me for one cent, and he has expended his own time and energy to create, maintain and contribute to these forums - all for the good of the community.
Brad, I can honestly say that this film community would not have 1900+ members nor be the Safe Haven it is today had it not been for your kindness on our behalf - Thanks just isn't a big enough word.
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