Author
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Topic: Is Super 8 doomed???????
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John Hourigan
Master Film Handler
Posts: 301
From: Colorado U.S.A.
Registered: Sep 2003
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posted September 27, 2003 07:52 PM
I think Brad raises an excellent point. And this isn't "gloom and doom." It's just a reality that we all must face -- we have to quit assuming that our 25+ year-old projectors will always be around (no matter how well maintained). Unfortunately, we don't have many (if any) options when it comes to new projectors, but if we really do care about the longevity of the hobby, we have to quit retreating to the false sanctuary of old projectors that seem to be "working fine now" (while holding our breath). I still don't understand why efforts to produce new projectors (e.g., the Fumeo) was met with such criticism. Sure, it was an expensive proposition and required a leap of faith. But are 20-30 year old projectors really a better alternative? I just don't get it. We are only ensuring the eventually "death" of our hobby if we keep the mentality that "Hey, why should I worry? -- I have a (25-year old) GS 1200."
That being said, I'm probably enjoying the hobby more today than during the "halycon days" of the 1970s. And I truly want this hobby to be around at least as long as I'm alive. That's why I'm concerned that we as collectors tend to pass off very real concerns about our old projectors grinding to a halt as "gloom and doom." (For the record, I use a ST 1200 from the mid-1970s). I totally agree with the sentiment of "let's enjoy the hobby today," but let's also try to ensure its longevity.
And I second the gentleman -- let's support the dealers out there who are producing new releases!!!
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Steven Sigel
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 701
From: Massachusetts
Registered: Jun 2003
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posted November 13, 2003 10:52 PM
Personally I do think that super 8 is heading in the direction of the do-do bird in the not too distant future.
I started collecting 16mm in the 1980s, but only started collecting super 8 two years ago. I bought a Xenon GS-1200, and was pretty happy that I could get a lot of titles on super 8 that were just impossible to find on 16mm.
Then, earlier this year, I got a DLP projector and did some A/B tests -- and with all due respect, a well-mastered DVD on a good DLP projector will beat super 8 any time (on a Xenon GS). 16mm is another story - I still prefer a nice 16mm print to a DVD. But, after seeing the difference, it occured to me that paying $20 for a DVD that has a picture that is nicer than a several hundred $ super 8 print is largely preferable. Not to mention the dolby digital surround sound....
So I decided to get out of super 8, and stick with 16mm and DVD/DLP for things that I couldn't find on 16mm.
And the process of selling off my super 8 prints has convinced me that the super 8 format is in a downward death spiral. Prints that I bought less than a year ago, I can't get anything close to what a paid for them (used)- I've taken a loss on almost every print I've sold - sometimes to the tune of several hundred $$. This has never happened to me in 16mm -- prices on nice prints of "A" titles have gone up over time, not down..... I think the reason is simple supply and demand - there is less and less demand for super 8 prints, therefore the prices drop.
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John Clancy
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1954
From: Cornwall
Registered: Jun 2003
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posted November 14, 2003 02:29 AM
Well thanks very much for posting that Steve. I'm sure we all feel much better now.
So which DLP are you using? The only one I've seen upon which a good DVD can rival a good Super 8 costs in excess of £4,000 and even then you have to put up with the dreaded rainbow effect which once seen you can't take your eyes off. LCD has the dust problem but I'd rather put up with that than that soddin' rainbow. For £5,000 it is possible to buy an LCD producing excellent imagery. However, the natural filmic look is still lacking much of the time. And it's largely a boring, non-involving pastime. Film is a real hobby.
No, give me Super 8 ahead of video projection any time. And let's face it modern Super 8 is very often superior to 16mm when it was at its height 20 years ago. Amazing print quality, tactile, mechanical projectors, cleaning the films, re-recording your prints, fiddling with the lenses on the projectors to improve the picture etc. etc. etc.. And on top of that the film collectors conventions where we can all get together and enjoy a nostalgic, amazing hobby. There is so much to film collecting which video will never enjoy. So can we all stop trying to promote junking Super 8 on this forum. I'd rather we sung its praises.
And to reiterate my opinion of my own video projectors - they were great when initially released. They also retailed at vast sums of money. Now they are practically worthless - I expect I could just about give them away. My GS-1200's (three of 'em) are probably worth as much as I paid for them.
Today I'm going to be contacting Phil Sheard as he now has full length Super 8 prints of 'Spider-man' in stock. I already have the DVD which I've video projected and enjoyed very much. However, it's not film and I'm only too happy to hand over a wadge of notes to someone willing to take the financial risk of making it available to us. I'd be very happy if a few others on this forum supported him too although I realize the cost of features are beyond many of us. He does however have many other excellent recent releases (as do Derann). Without our support these releases will not continue.
-------------------- British Film Collectors Convention home page www.bfcc.biz. The site is for the whole of the film collecting hobby and not just the BFCC.
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Tim Christian
Expert Film Handler
Posts: 219
From: Norfolk, UK
Registered: Jun 2003
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posted November 14, 2003 04:55 AM
Steve's praise for dvd and lcd technology sounds a little desperate - almost an attempt to justify spending a large amount of money without a major benefit.
The term 'better' is rather vague. Without wishing to re-open a debate that has been pursued on Super8filmshooting
for years, it is necessary to differentiate between sharpness and detail. Edge enhancement can make a video picture look sharper than a film picture, but it is not possible for a picture generated using existing TV broadcast standard equipment to approach the level of detail that Super 8 film is capable of. In any case, the full potential of Super 8 is seldom fully realized in commercial prints.
The cost of replacing my own 8mm facilities for both making and showing films with 'leading edge' technology would probably exceed what I have paid for both them and my film collection. Even then, I would have a tiger by the tail. Modern gadgets become obsolescent so quickly: even as you spend your money, somewhere someone is working on the next generation of moneyspinners. My reaction to finding that new dvds wouldn't play on my old player due to lack of memory would not be printable here. Having never bought one, I've been spared that. In any case, much of the footage that interests me isn't available on either video or dvd.
Of course S8 will dwindle - like every other technology. But it probably won't disappear while I am able to enjoy it. Anyway, steam engines, biplane aircraft and vinyl records are still made: they may be niche markets - but they are still going.
-------------------- Tim
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Steve Klare
Film Guy
Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003
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posted November 14, 2003 08:53 AM
It's kind of funny, I never think of DVD replacing Super-8 because to me they don't fill the same purpose. DVD is a machine under the TV set that I use when I want to lay on the couch and watch a movie. Super-8 is my hobby, which involves making and collecting films and collecting and repairing (and enhancing sometimes)equipment and then using it all together to put on shows.
DVD is wonderful for it's purpose, it is no fuss, no muss and self contained. As a hobby it just doesn't work for me. (Appologies to those for whom it does!)
I have a small collection of miniature steam engines. I fill the boiler, I lubricate the engine, I fuel it and light the fire. The steam comes up, the piston moves and the flywheel spins. Replacing Super-8 with DVD would be like replacing my engines with a battery and an electric motor. The results are the same, but the process is the whole point.
I super-8 doomed? Ultimately, yes. Ultimately, so is DVD, ourselves, our societies, the planet and perhaps the universe. However, if we spend our whole lives dwelling on the coming end we will miss the chance to enjoy life, and even this nice little corner of it called Super-8.
(I really hate this thread.)
-------------------- All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...
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Steven Sigel
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 701
From: Massachusetts
Registered: Jun 2003
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posted November 14, 2003 09:24 AM
I've been collecting 16mm films for 15 years and have over 3000 titles -- I'm a film collector first and foremost, and quality is very important to me.
I've always found super 8 to be inferior to 16mm -- granted a nice super 8 print looks better than a so-so 16mm print, but you've only got 1/4 the surface area -- do the math.
John: I use a Sharp PG-M20x run from a computer source (not a DVD player). The image is brighter and sharper than any of my super 8 prints ever were. I could never get the focus on the super 8 to be as clear as I wanted, and the image was always quite dim (even on a Xenon GS).
I ran DVD and super 8 side by side and asked several other film collector friends their opinion, and everyone agreed that DVDs looked better (or at very least the same.
You are right that a ELMO GS projector holds it's value -- but I said that the price of used films is dropping, not the price of high end projectors. If you look at the over all cost - even if you assume that the video projector is a throw away item, the DVDs are so ridiculously cheap that you can have 20+ movies for the price of one super 8 feature. So - it's clearly a better choice for films that you don't watch often -- and of course you can rent a dvd of a film that you only want to see once -- try finding a place to rent a film print these days....
To Tim -- I think you are the one who sounds desperate - not me. I'm not trying to justify anything - just pointing out what I've seen. I've spent about $2000 for the projector, and maybe $2000 more for all of the DVDs that I have. That's nothing compared with what I've got sunk into 16mm films. I definitely like 16mm film better than projected DVDs, I also like dealing with film - it's more real than a bunch of bits on a piece of plastic. But in my case, I got into super 8 to be able to see titles projected that I couldn't get on 16mm. The DVDs can now serve that purpose. To me, that is a major benefit.
BTW - The term "better" is subjective - not vague.
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Steve Klare
Film Guy
Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003
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posted November 14, 2003 10:50 AM
All due respect Mr. Sigel,
But if you don't enjoy Super-8 anymore, please don't rain on our parade.
-Just please keep your S-8 stuff in circulation by selling it to us!
Personally, I don't do Super-8 solely for the image quality, and frankly I find watching a feature length Super-8 film to be a real pain. It's just something I enjoy, and an escape from other things I sometimes don't.
When that someday comes and It's gone for good, I'll miss it! For now, I'll just enjoy it.
-------------------- All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...
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Mark Todd
Film God
Posts: 3846
From: UK
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted November 14, 2003 03:51 PM
I think those that will do film still, will do film still whatever is said. I like the way on efilm they were brave enough to open a dvd vid proj forum as well as many of us do both now. I actually hope that it brings many second hand films down a little and they get cheaper, my reason for this is not to see people loose cash, though I personally usually do on resale but that when newbies come to the hobby they see that they can get a foot on the ladder and if prices stay very high by comparrison with other mediums people will say stuff it and we`ll just be left with a small band of die hards. Selling films for as much as you can is self defeating in the hobby sense then. And prices kept high may have a hobby negative effect. When I suggested doing an add about super 8 and an article in something like home cinema there wasn`t much interest at all so didn`t bother as didn`t seem people supported it. We have to be realistic that film use, real film is going to decline to some degree and already people who release sell the shorts best to a certain interest group. I have to a agree wholeheartedly with Steven about video projection, mine is only simple s,vhs out of the back of a cheap DVD player to a 4 or 5 years old sony CS2 and I think its stunning. You have to be realistic that you can now get say an epsom for £800 or less with three years cover that does a brilliant job, Plug it straight into the DVD player get some friends round and bobs your uncle, the big screen is the big screen to most people regardless of whats trundling along behind it, people may show a bit of interest in a cine machine but it will rarely if ever prove to be a seed in the hobby. Theres an awful lot to doing both and as both super 8 film producers in the UK sell video projection equipment and dvd`s etc it speaks for itself. Its all to easy to get insular and defensive but theres no need, for those who want to there will always be enough super 8 film around for a good while into the future and plenty of projectors, just take a look on Germany`s ebay or the states and there tons of the stuff about. For me now its much more of a transient thing for me in film, I buy in, watch and enjoy then mainly move it on( mainly due to the expanding family), things I really like I get on DVD as back up or if I sell films on I still have it. DVD projection opens up a whole new world of different and interesting films you could never hope to have a small fraction of on film, even if you could affording it would be prohibitive. So anyway after all of that if you love film don`t panic but also don`t write of other mediums to complement the big picture experiance and DVD`s will probably be around for as long as super 8 will have been as well, they are still round and go round and contain lovely images just like our beloved films, its all the same thing really.Film is just a medium too. best Mark.
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Paul Adsett
Film God
Posts: 5003
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003
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posted November 14, 2003 07:17 PM
Hi Steven (Sigel), You are absolutely correct that a 16mm print will always be better than a S8 print... about 4x better, all things being equal. But Super 8 has something which 16mm has never had, or never will have, namely superb quality stereo sound. To see a superb S8 Cinemascope print, such as "Grease", projected on an 8ft screen, with a stereo magnetic track which has been redubbed from DVD, is in my opinion, a far better movie experience than viewing the same film as a 16mm print with only mono sound from the inferior quality 16mm optical sound track. I cannot comment on front projected DVD as I do not posess one, but I can say that the back projected large box TV'S that I have seen are dreadful. Also it should be obvious to all, that you cannot justify film collecting on the base of cost comparison with DVD. You collect S8 for the joy of the hobby, as John points out. I watch new DVD'S almost every night.... from Blockbuster, but I buy very few. Try selling them if you think you are losing money selling films. I had a garage sale last week and had a hard time getting $2.00 for mint DVD'S or $1.00 for VHS tapes, whereas old Universal 400 footers are getting 30, 40, or $50.00 each on EBay. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy watching a good DVD movie on my superb Sony flatscreen TV, but its nowhere near the fun of working with Super 8 equipment and films. And my family and friends love to come over for a Super 8 movie night- it really is a special occasion for all, and I always get positive feedback. So maybe ,Steven, you are being a little too hard on Super 8. Let's revisit your position ,say 10 years from now, when all your current DVD projection equipment and DVD's will be obsolete, and the GS1200'S will still be projecting great super 8 films to appreciative audiences!
-------------------- The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection, Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj
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Alan Rik
Film God
Posts: 2211
From: New York City, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003
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posted November 15, 2003 01:20 AM
Well, I guess we could all sit and wonder when it will all end, but what is the point? Most likely these films and the projectors will outlast us even! I know that I really like seeing films on DVD on a large flat screen plasma monitor. But I don't know why...but I get Esctatic when I hear of a new release on Super 8! It really defies logic! Super 8 costs more, isn't as sharp at times, colors are off, and the machines are a pain to keep in top condition. But....I went and did a screening of Spaceballs a few weeks back. I have tried and tried to watch the DVD for years but never had the inclination. But I screened Spaceballs for a few friends and it was great! I laughed out loud! And even when I am alone, I watched my pink version of "Saturday Night Fever" and it was so INVOLVING. So different and visceral than DVD's could ever be for me. I guess it is like the difference between Vinyl and CD's. I have been hooked since I was 11 and I know I will still be looking for that elusive print, that super califragilistic projector when I am an old man. And an added plus? I film in Super 8 and everyone who has seen themselves on Super 8 just love it. So different than Video! Let's face it guys and gals (are there any gals here?) we are all romantics that just need to hear that click and clack. We are the Toto's of the world. (Cinema Paradiso kid). And that is what keeps us young!
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Paul Adsett
Film God
Posts: 5003
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003
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posted November 16, 2003 08:14 AM
Alan, I could not agree more. We are all on this Forum because we love showing Super 8 films, and working with Super 8 equipment....for whatever reason. Comparing it to Video is like comparing apples and oranges. I just wish those collectors who have recently aquired the (short term) novelty of a Video projector , would avoid negative comments about super 8, as if all the rest of us were living in the dark ages. We have seen video projection and still want to collect and show Super 8 films, thank you very much!
-------------------- The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection, Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj
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