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Author Topic: Goo-Gone as a Film Cleaner
Brad Kimball
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 887
From: Highland Mills, NY USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted June 14, 2004 12:40 AM      Profile for Brad Kimball   Email Brad Kimball   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Apparently "Goo-Gone" will actually clean(?) film. Before I use it, can anyone testify to its cleaning capability? Also, where can I get the type of silicone to lubricate film and what brand? I don't want to buy something that will harm my precious goodies in any way.

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John Whittle
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 791
From: Northridge, CA USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted June 16, 2004 04:45 PM      Profile for John Whittle   Email John Whittle       Edit/Delete Post 
You might want to be a bit careful about "household" chemicals for film cleaning since you don't know the long term effects it can have on mag stripe and color fastness. Eastman Kodak and the SMPTE both have published lists of film cleaners and their chemical make up and what the long term effects are on film base.

Silicone was a popular treatment back in the 1960s and sold (if memory serves me) as either surfset or film magic. They had a treated cloth and also a solution.

The problem was it was impossible to get off and there were problems with spotting and fouling of projector parts. There are numerous spray cans of silicone available at your local hardware store but use them at your own risk.

Again it was popular in the 60s (even some labs put it in a final wash as a film lube) but no one I know of uses it today.

Kodak has also published a list of film lubricants, visit the Kodak site and see what you can find there (I would but I have the old data books in my library.)

John

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Tony Milman
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1259
From: United Kingdom
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted June 17, 2004 02:22 PM      Profile for Tony Milman   Author's Homepage   Email Tony Milman   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi, here is the data from the kodak site

Film Cleaning Solvents


The use of organic solvents to clean motion picture films has been an accepted practice for over 30 years. The 1996 Montreal Protocol legislation has however, banned the manufacture of the most common solvent (1,1,1 - Trichloroethane) previously used for film cleaning. The motion picture industry continues to request that other chemicals be identified as potential alternatives for use in film cleaning applications. As a service to the motion picture industry, Kodak has provided a list of potential alternatives and still continues to search for new film cleaning solutions.

One of the most frequently asked questions we receive about film cleaning is: "What film cleaning solution do you recommend that we use?" Unfortunately, there is no simple answer to this question. After extensively searching for a "replacement" for 1,1,1-Trichloroethane, no one chemical has been identified as having all the positive performance attributes of 1,1,1-Trichloroethane. The table below provides a list of alternative solvents suitable for cleaning motion picture films (ECN, ECI, ECP). Each solvent has been tested for color image dye stability and physical deformation of the film (e.g., base curling). In the table you will note that there are many differences between the solvents: boiling points, cost, cleaning ability, etc. The choice of a solvent will be dependent upon its particular application and additionally may be subject to rules and regulations regarding health, safety, and environmental considerations. We strongly suggest that you fully research and carefully test any film cleaning solution to determine if it will fulfill all your specific operational and end-product quality criteria before making a final selection.

The successful and safe use of these solutions in existing (or future) film cleaning equipment has been left to the equipment manufacturers since they must optimize their equipment for the individual properties of the various solutions (e.g., machine speed, drying temperature, part compatibility, cleaning setup, safety features, etc.).

Lipsner Smith has tested a variety of alternative film cleaning solvents and has provided some helpful information on their web site. However, the listing of any solution does not guarantee its performance in a film cleaning operation. This listing serves only as a general guideline as to those solvents that have been identified as not having a deleterious effect on motion picture films in limited testing.

This table is periodically updated to reflect the results of our most recently conducted tests. It should be noted that apart from commodity chemicals (i.e., isopropanol), Eastman Kodak does not manufacture or sell these solvents. Pricing, transportation, quality control, etc., are all the responsibility of the original chemical manufacturer or supplier.

The following helps explain the table of information. Questions concerning any of this information can be asked through the contact form.

Name - Trade name or general chemical name used to identify (purchase) the solvent. Specific chemical manufacturers (sole suppliers) have been identified wherever possible. Generic descriptions have also been provided where mixtures of chemicals are used.

Flash Point (FP) - This is the minimum temperature at which a liquid gives off vapors in sufficient concentrations to form an ignitable mixture with air as determined by Uniform Fire Code Standard 9-1 & 9-2. A chemical is called flammable if its flash point is less than 100 degrees F, and combustible if the flash point is greater than 100 degrees F. The use of chemicals with flash points requires additional safety considerations.

Boiling Point (BP) - This is the temperature (in degrees C) at which a liquid exerts a vapor pressure equal to atmospheric pressure. Films cleaned with high boiling liquids generally will require longer drying times and/or higher drying temperatures.

Cleaning - This is a subjective evaluation of hand cleaning tests that rates the solution's ability to remove debris and oils from the surface of the film.

Cost- This is a categorization of the suggested manufacturers cost (US $) per pound of solvent.

Evaporation Rate- This is a characterization of the volatility of the solvent. The higher the evaporation rate the quicker the drying, but the higher risk of losing the solvent to the atmosphere (harder to recapture and reuse).
Definitions:

TLV = threshold limit value;
ppm = parts per million;
ODP = ozone depletion potential;
GWP = global warming potential.

FILM-CLEANING SOLVENT OPTIONS
Acceptable image stability and physicals:
NAME: FP Fdeg BP Cdeg Cleaning Cost Evap Rate COMMENTS:
TRICHLOROETHANE
(111, Trichlor, TCA, CF-2) None 73 Excellent $+ M Most used cleaning. TLV 350ppm
ODP Phase out
Perchloroethylene
(Perc, Tetrachloroethylene) None 121 Good $-- L Wet gate solvent. Increasing use
as a cleaner. TLV 25ppm.
HFE 8200 3M
Ethyl Perfluoroisobutyl ether / Ethyl Perfluorobutyl ether None 76 Adequate $$$ H Zero ODP, Low GWP
Exposure limit 200ppm
HFE 7200 (3M)
Ethyl Perfluoroisobutyl ether/ Ethyl Perfluorobutyl ether None 78 Adequate $$$ H No ODP, Low GWP
HFC 43-10 mee (DUPONT)
(1,1,1,2,3,4,4,5,5,5-decafluoro Pentane) None 54 Adequate $$$ H TLV (temp) 400ppm.
Low odor
ASAHI KLIN AK-225 (ASAHI)
(3,3-dichloro-1,1,1,2,2-
pentafluoropropane) None 51-56 Good $$$ H ODP (phase out 2015)
TLV (temp) 50ppm
ISOPROPANOL
(2-propanol, secondary propyl alcohol,
dimethyl carbinol, petrohol) 53 82 Good $ H Flammable. Colorless. Low odor.
Gathers water.
ISOBUTYLBENZENE
(2-methylpropyl benzene, methyl-1-phenylpropane) 131 170 Good $ L Combustible; colorless, persistent odor
ACTREL 1064 L (EXXON)
(Mixture of hydrocarbons) 147 196-237 Good $$ L Combustible; colorless, slight ester odor
Hydrotreated Naptha (Signal Inc.)
Hydrocarbon Type Film Cleaner 40 104 154-177 Excellent $ L Non Hazardous, Combustible 300ppm
Isopar® G Naptha
Exxon Chemical 106 161-176 Excellent $- L Non Hazardous, Combustible OEL=300ppm
Exxsol® D3135 Naptha
Exxon Chemical 106 158-177 Excellent $- L Non Hazardous, Combustible OEL=300ppm
Soltrol® 100
Chevron Phillips Chemical Co. 106 160-167 Excellent $- L Non Hazardous, Combustible
* $ = 1 - 5 dollars per pound, $$ = 5 - 10 dollars per pound, $$$ =10 - 20 dollars per pound

--------------------
Tony

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Paul Adsett
Film God

Posts: 3237
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted June 17, 2004 03:14 PM      Profile for Paul Adsett     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Tony,
I think I'll stay with furniture polish!

--------------------
The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,

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Michael De Angelis
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1122
From: Albertson, N.Y.
Registered: Jul 2003


 - posted June 17, 2004 11:44 PM      Profile for Michael De Angelis   Email Michael De Angelis   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Tony,
That was an accurate and Masterful reply. Many thanks.

Here in the USA, consumers may ask for a Material Safety Data Sheet; also
know as an MSDS. This is granted in the Right to Know Law,
That is part of the Occupational Safety Administration in the Federal Government. (OSSIA)
MSDS are available to paints, thinners, cleaners etc. However, it is important
to understand minimum threshold levels. These companies are required by law to reveal the safety levels to consumers. They are also required to state
the main ingredient in the product.

Film Renew is a Stoddard Solvent, which is indicated on an MSDS.
Stoddard Solvents are similar to paint thinner.
But, I would not put paint thinner on my films.

In essence, the lower the level, the higher the concentration of the chemical to
fill the air. The higher the level, in parts per million; ( PPM ) means that it
will take higher concentrations to make you ill.

Dipose of all 1,1,1 tricloretheane products properly.

Keep good ventilation, a fan to expell odors away from
your breathing area, and wear the proper protective gloves,
especially when handling any film cleaners.

Best Regards and good health to all.
Michael

--------------------
Isn't it great that we can all communicate about this great
hobby that we love!

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Daryl C. W. O'Shea
Film Handler

Posts: 35
From: Midland Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted June 18, 2004 12:31 AM      Profile for Daryl C. W. O'Shea   Email Daryl C. W. O'Shea   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Having been around a plastics factory for nearly 20 years, we've only found one silicon spray that doesn't attack plastic. Of course I've forgotten who makes it. In any case, I wouldn't be using silicon on any plastic based film.

A much better, and fairly inexpensive, solution is to use a product specifically designed and sold for use as a film cleaner such as FilmGuard.


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Brad Kimball
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 887
From: Highland Mills, NY USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted June 18, 2004 11:45 PM      Profile for Brad Kimball   Email Brad Kimball   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Paul..... You don't really use furniture polish, do you?

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Douglas Meltzer
Moderator

Posts: 3428
From: New York, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted June 19, 2004 12:22 AM      Profile for Douglas Meltzer   Email Douglas Meltzer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Brad,

Did you get this from Phil Johnson's site?
http://8mm16mmfilmscollectibles.com/equipment.htm
To quote Phil, "You can also use GOO GONE, avaliable at the grocery store or Wal-Mart to clean films. After the film cleaner has completely evaporated, it would also be a good idea to polish and lubricate them with a silicone treated cloth."
I'll stick to FilmGuard.

Doug

--------------------
I think there's room for just one more film.....

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Paul Adsett
Film God

Posts: 3237
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted June 19, 2004 09:08 AM      Profile for Paul Adsett     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yes Brad, I DO use furniture polish on my films. Johnson's FAVOR to be exact. I have found that rewinding the film through a cotton cloth with a light spray of Favor on the cloth, provides some lubrication of the film. I've done this for years with no bad effects, as long as you don't soak the cloth. The problem I have with commercial film cleaners Brad, is that I don't trust them from a health point of view. They often contain dangerous and sometimes toxic volatiles. Where are the Material Safety Data Sheets (MSDS)?- many cleaners dont have them or won't supply them , so you use them at your own risk. Much as I love my films, my health comes first. In comparison, household products such as furniture polish are very safe, having been thoroughly tested by the big companies. I am presently experimenting with ArmorAll wipes to determine if these have any benefit. Initial results are promising.

--------------------
The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,

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Tom Photiou
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1918
From: Plymouth U.K
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted June 19, 2004 09:20 AM      Profile for Tom Photiou   Email Tom Photiou   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Daryll, i have never used film gaurd berfore but a gent in Irland gave me it's full recommendation. I have a supplier and will be getting some soon, i understand cost in this country to be around £40-£45. A lot of dosh but then films at thier cost are well worth the best protection.

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Daryl C. W. O'Shea
Film Handler

Posts: 35
From: Midland Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted June 19, 2004 11:29 PM      Profile for Daryl C. W. O'Shea   Email Daryl C. W. O'Shea   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
A bottle of FilmGuard will last you a very LONG time cleaning 8mm film.

MSDS' are available for FilmGuard.

Implying that 'big companies' extensively test common chemicals is quite funny. [Smile]

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Tom Photiou
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1918
From: Plymouth U.K
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted June 20, 2004 06:38 AM      Profile for Tom Photiou   Email Tom Photiou   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
One important question for you Daryl, we have around 300 films all of which have been treated with various cleaners within the last few years, namely, 222 film cleaner and Deranns LFC, (which i believe may be dodgy for older prints), if i get the filmgaurd will it be ok to use on my films with these various cleaners already on them, my worry is wether there would be a problem mixing?

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Douglas Meltzer
Moderator

Posts: 3428
From: New York, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted June 20, 2004 09:39 AM      Profile for Douglas Meltzer   Email Douglas Meltzer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Tom,

You can check out the FilmGuard site at
http://www.film-tech.com/products/filmguard.html
The site only mentions that "FilmGuard was not intended for use with Photoguarded prints. FilmGuard will not damage them, but will offer no benefits as the lubricant cannot penetrate through the Photoguard."

Doug

--------------------
I think there's room for just one more film.....

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Daryl C. W. O'Shea
Film Handler

Posts: 35
From: Midland Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted June 21, 2004 01:23 AM      Profile for Daryl C. W. O'Shea   Email Daryl C. W. O'Shea   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If you can't tell by 'feeling the film' that any other cleaner is on it then you shouldn't have any problems. Other cleaners (than FilmGuard) evaporate over time, so they're probably 'all gone' anyway.

If you've got 300 films, you'll probably eventually need more than one bottle but it still goes a long way. An ounce is enough for about 12,000 feet of 35mm film.

With so many films to do, I'd also suggest in investing in an automated media cleaner that can be used with FilmGuard. Kelmar's 35mm cleaner can be very easily converted to work with 8mm.

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Brad Kimball
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 887
From: Highland Mills, NY USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted June 21, 2004 11:59 PM      Profile for Brad Kimball   Email Brad Kimball   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yep, That's where I got it Doug.......
FAVOR, huh? Does it clean AND lubricate or just lubricate?

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Daryl C. W. O'Shea
Film Handler

Posts: 35
From: Midland Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted June 24, 2004 02:21 AM      Profile for Daryl C. W. O'Shea   Email Daryl C. W. O'Shea   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
FilmGuard? Both. Best when used with a (not so) dry web media cleaner, acceptably well by hand.

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Daryl C. W. O'Shea
Film Handler

Posts: 35
From: Midland Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted July 25, 2004 11:29 PM      Profile for Daryl C. W. O'Shea   Email Daryl C. W. O'Shea   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I finally remembered to check the name of the silicon lubricant that doesn't eat plastics.

Crown 68034 Silicone Lubricant

"General Purpose, Odorless, Colorless, Non-Staining, Will Not Gum, Run-Off or Form Messy Residues" (which is all true)

It comes in a case of 10 or 12 16oz spray cans. Contact info from the can is:

North American Professional Products
91 Caldari Road,
Concord, Ontario, Canada
L4K 3Z9

Telephone: 1-800-461-3131

I still wouldn't recommend cleaning film with silicone though. Use a film cleaner designed for cleaning film, surely your films are worth it.

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Mark Todd
Film God

Posts: 2179
From: UK
Registered: Aug 2003


 - posted July 26, 2004 05:55 AM      Profile for Mark Todd   Email Mark Todd   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Tom, I`d yes be very careful with the derran film cleaner as OK on Plastic but as we have said on here before not so good on B+W or acetate films.
It tends to cause them to warp or curl the edges, its not so bad if you don`t use much but then of course you risk scratching the films.Doesn`t tend to do much for lubing actetate either.Good for poly mind.
I seem to have found also that films you can tell were done with 222, very good for its time, tend to have faded or redded more, you can usually tell the 222 remains and its particularly obvious on walton prints on Fuji that usually hold up very well and if you do get one on the way its usually down to 222 or something.
Someone once told me to use WD40 and what a going on and nearly gased myself even in the garden as its so strong in large amounts.
Anybody used Xecote 11 at all in the states, wondered how that fairs long term???????????
In the Uk at the moment about the best I believe is crestclene from Classic home Cinema, about to buy some myself.
Kind when applied and although a bit strong, copeable and it clears pretty well.
Very good for lubing as well I think.
Of course thermofilm was the best and I usd to put it on liberally with my bare fingers, thankfully a while after carbon tet was not used anymore.
Any more of the US stuff any good at all?????
best Mark.
PS I had some B+W standard stuff curl badly with filmgaurd once.I supoose each batch can vary.

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Tony Milman
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1259
From: United Kingdom
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted July 26, 2004 01:16 PM      Profile for Tony Milman   Author's Homepage   Email Tony Milman   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The last Cresclean I bought (at the October 2003 BFCC) was not a patch on the bottle I bought off you Mark. It was much darker in colour and smelled very strongly of paraffin (spelling?) as opposed to the turps or white spirit odour I had before. More importantly it does not fill in the fine black line scratches anywhere near as well.

Someone else commented on this and contacted Classic to be met by the usual helpful response! Nothing of course had changed.....yeah right

Tony

--------------------
Tony

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Michael De Angelis
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1122
From: Albertson, N.Y.
Registered: Jul 2003


 - posted July 27, 2004 12:51 AM      Profile for Michael De Angelis   Email Michael De Angelis   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Mark,

I'm sure many people are satisfied with Film Guard. However, my belief is if
a film is stored away wet, it is more prone to curl.
Thus, when using Film Guard, a hobbyist needs to carefully control how
much is applied.

--------------------
Isn't it great that we can all communicate about this great
hobby that we love!

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Mark Todd
Film God

Posts: 2179
From: UK
Registered: Aug 2003


 - posted July 27, 2004 04:56 AM      Profile for Mark Todd   Email Mark Todd   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Michael with the film gaurd I just treated a few 200 foot B+S standard 8 films and looked at them a couple of days later to see most had some curl etc now. One didn`t at all.
I`m pretty sure I did it right, and looking how its applied with rollers etc usually could`nt have used too much.
Ah Tony that is funny, I wonder what has changed in the make up then, doesn`t sound as good.Hope its back to normal.
best Mark.

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Michael De Angelis
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1122
From: Albertson, N.Y.
Registered: Jul 2003


 - posted July 30, 2004 01:41 AM      Profile for Michael De Angelis   Email Michael De Angelis   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hello Mark,
Hopefully the situation will improve with the films that have curled,
and it is curious that some curled and others did not curl.

I believe that you indeed applied the solution correctly and evenly.
May I ask if you had rewound the Film Guard treated films between rewinds, or
by the auto rewind on a projector?

I am curious if due to some reels being out of shape, or if the rewind motor may not provide enough torque in relation to the conditon of each film, has an effect on the outcome with Film Guard applied,

Perhaps hobbyists will expect different results with each reel of film based upon the variables that are encounted when handling film?

I have a notion, that film is a 'breathing' medium, similar to wood.
If wood or furniture is not protected or treated correctly, its properties will change. This is based upon enviornmental conditons and humidity.

Having used Film Renew, I experienced it is as a slow drying cleaner and conditioner. After appling it to film, I use hand rewinds with the films in
my collection. I try not store the films away wet, but allow them to dry before
projection.

This method leaves me feeling satisfied that the films are wound very well, but
not overly tight or excessively loose.

My experience with rewinding the plastic reels from Derann on the GS 1200, leaves many of the films taking up in an irregular, egg shaped,
or with a spongy feel to the film effect, which is due to the rewind and the reels. If I left wet cleaner on the films, they would dry unevenly and found that they would not lay flat the next time that I would use them.

Last but not least, I would use hand rewinds on the curled film, and reverse
the curl by applying a minimal amount of cleaner to the film, and rewind the
film in an opposite method, so that it will lay flat.

Keep it in this position for a week, and check it. If it has flattened by a little bit, try it again, for several more weeks.

Hope this helps.

--------------------
Isn't it great that we can all communicate about this great
hobby that we love!

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Douglas Meltzer
Moderator

Posts: 3428
From: New York, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted July 30, 2004 09:38 AM      Profile for Douglas Meltzer   Email Douglas Meltzer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I've used FilmGuard on over 200 reels of film (Super & Standard, b&W, color) and have never once encountered any curl. My method is very simple. Two rewinds, cloth, and just a bit of FilmGuard. Depending on the state of the film, I change cloths aprrox. every 50-75 ft. I then let the films sit out for awhile to help in the drying process. Only a small spray of FilmGuard is needed on the cloth. In fact those 200+ reels (varying sizes) were all done with one bottle!

Doug

--------------------
I think there's room for just one more film.....

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Mark Todd
Film God

Posts: 2179
From: UK
Registered: Aug 2003


 - posted July 30, 2004 11:58 AM      Profile for Mark Todd   Email Mark Todd   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi i think its more probably due to where thr films were or how stored before I got them, maybe really dried out so moisture affected them.
I never ever had anything like that with Thermofilm however the film was. That used to be cracking stuff.
These days I do any of this sort of thing in the garden as I seem to be pretty intolerant of the solvents these days.
Has anyone tried xecote 2 at all from Larry U`s, as fancied giving that ago.
Best Mark.

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 446
From: Dallas, TX, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted July 30, 2004 06:13 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
The FilmGuard mix has not changed. I have never seen a print show any curling issues when cleaning with FilmGuard and the statement that a print stored "wet" is more prone to curl is not correct. Also remember that 1 OUNCE will properly clean 2 hours (12,000 feet) of 35mm film. Now divide that up and calculate 2 hours of 8mm film and see what you get. [Wink]

The *proper* way of applying FilmGuard to prints is via the Kelmar media cleaner as pictured in the instructions. These cleaners are effortlessly converted to run 16mm and 8mm gauges with two longer bolts through the main drive wheel. They can be had fairly inexpensively on the used market and are fully automated (you set up the pads, thread the film through it and walk away). They provide the best possible cleaning available. No cleaning by hand can compare.

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