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Author Topic: "Film Renew"
Michael De Angelis
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1261
From: USA
Registered: Jul 2003


 - posted November 05, 2004 10:22 PM      Profile for Michael De Angelis   Email Michael De Angelis   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John,

When using a damp cloth with water, is the cloth applied to both sides of the film, or just the base side. How long do you wait to air dry the film before applying the Thermofilm, and will this remove black scratches and keep the black scratches off of the film, or will they all return once the film dries again.
Last but not least does this proces, treat emulsion scratches the same way?

Paul,
Your project is worth a try with film that is not as treasured. What's there to loose?

Best,
Michael

--------------------
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John Clancy
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1954
From: Cornwall
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted November 06, 2004 01:24 AM      Profile for John Clancy   Author's Homepage   Email John Clancy   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I just run the film through a damp cloth on both sides. Of course, the treatment only works to the emulsion side so you could just dampen the one side but there doesn't seem to be anything much to gain from that.

How long it depends to dry depends on the room temperature at the time. It's generally a quicker process on a warm day. Whatever I generally leave the film hanging (hardly touching anything) for at least half an hour. Any light emulsion side scratches should be removed.

Then comes the Thermofilm which has a light wax and therefore can hide light base side scratches.

Learned all this off Mr. Wilton which is one of the reasons just about all the super 8 screened at the BFCC's look in such good condition despite some being over 30 years old. The process (in a more technical fashion) was also detailed on the Kodak web page a couple of years ago when we had a bit of an argument on the old forum from some members refusing to believe this miracle cure for scratches. Some got quite upset but I can assure you it does really work. Just test it on a print you don't care for to get it right. And don't soak the film otherwise you can end up with water marks you need to polish out - a real pain.

--------------------
British Film Collectors Convention home page www.bfcc.biz. The site is for the whole of the film collecting hobby and not just the BFCC.

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Kevin Faulkner
Film God

Posts: 4071
From: Essex UK
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted November 06, 2004 09:05 AM      Profile for Kevin Faulkner         Edit/Delete Post 
Now for another science lesson [Confused]

The trick of re wetting film is a very old one. It will only partially hide emulsion scratches unless they are really fine ones and then in those cases they can be illiminated completely and permanently.

The best way to do this is to draw the film slowly through warm water at about 35 centigrade and allow it to dry using warm air prior to spooling up. This is exactly how your film is dried in a comercial processing lab.

Now what happens when you scratch the film surface. You basically cut a groove into the emulsions "non stress" gelatin coating which if viewed under amicroscope will be a groove with sharp edges.
The action of re wetting the film causes the gealtin to swell up, and by a substantial amount. This action causes the sharp edged groove to become more rounded which then leaves a groove which is now concave in shape and not square. On projection the scratch is more or less invisible depending on how bad it was in the first place. With extremely fine scratches the swelling of the gelatin can in fact marry the two edges of the scratch together and it will no longer be visible at all on subsequent projection.

Heat upto about 40 C will not harm your film in any way at all. Film is designed for processing at these temps. The drying cabinets in some photo processors can be upto about 60 C for fast drying.

If anyone is going to try this then can I advise on a few drops of washing up liquid in the water as this helps to dry the film without any drying marks. Fast drying is also esential to keep dust etc off the film during drying as it will embed itself in the emulsion and the only way to be rid of it again is to re wet once more. Comercial film processors have filters on the fan intakes to cut this problem down. In some older processing machines infra red heating is used for drying along with fans to circulate the air. At home I have indeed used a hair dryer to enable fast drying.

This does work well but as has been said earlier it will not cure deep emulsion scratches which look green on the screen as they are deep and have in fact removed some of the dye layers but it will help to make them look less harsh.

I have seen film in a photolab put back through the whole process (as it was easier to do that) which had got scratched prior to printing and this would eliminate most of the damage.

I have tried this like KW on super 8 and it can really make a print look like new. [Smile]

Kev.

--------------------
GS1200 Xenon with Elmo 1.0...great combo along with a 16-CL Xenon for that super bright white light.

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Chris Quinn
Master Film Handler

Posts: 372
From: England, Bedfordshire.
Registered: Nov 2003


 - posted November 06, 2004 11:12 AM      Profile for Chris Quinn   Email Chris Quinn   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Brill Kev,
Learned something today.
How far away is the web site?
Chris.

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The other half thinks i'm up to something. Shes right of course.

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Michael De Angelis
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1261
From: USA
Registered: Jul 2003


 - posted November 06, 2004 02:38 PM      Profile for Michael De Angelis   Email Michael De Angelis   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Kev & John,

I must say that I am completely intrigued by the success which you have found in using water on film prints to remove scratches, as well as using a hair dryer.

My earlier anti-hair dryer comment, was based upon an experience with a 16mm film short which I received years ago that had some warp in the tail end of the film. It was so warped that it went out of focus. Thinking that heat restores memory to plastic, I wound it tight and placed a hair dryer to it. Well, it flattened the film to perfection and the picture in that area was as sharp as a tack, but it wreaked of vinegar smell. I suppose the film was degrading before my attempt.

But this could be for another thread on the forum. But getting back to what you had said earlier, are you using liquid hand soap mixed in with water to help the film dry faster? I'm thinking of what I could use here in the USA, that is to what you are using. We also have electric dishwasher detergent that claims not to leave streaks on glass and crystal ware.

Also if I were to try this with 800 feet to 1600 feet of 16mm film, how would you suggest that I run the cloth and dry the film so it will not stick on a take up reel?

Thanks for your help.

Best,
Michael

--------------------
Isn't it great that we can all communicate about this great
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Craig Hamilton
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 501
From: Luton
Registered: Sep 2004


 - posted November 06, 2004 02:38 PM      Profile for Craig Hamilton   Email Craig Hamilton   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
A film laundrette! Now theirs a business opportunity [Wink]

Craig

--------------------
I dream of becoming a dealer!!!!!!
Is Perry's Movies for Sale.

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Michael De Angelis
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1261
From: USA
Registered: Jul 2003


 - posted November 06, 2004 02:41 PM      Profile for Michael De Angelis   Email Michael De Angelis   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Craig,
You are too funny! [Smile]
That made me smile

Best,
Michael

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Kevin Faulkner
Film God

Posts: 4071
From: Essex UK
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted November 06, 2004 04:46 PM      Profile for Kevin Faulkner         Edit/Delete Post 
Yes Craig that made me laugh too. [Big Grin]

Michael, What I have done in the past is to allow the film to come off it's supply reel and then soak say 3ft in warm water. As you pull it out of the water you then used tissues (not too fluffy) or cloth to remove the excess water. You can then use a hair drier to dry that section before spooling it back up on the tkae up spool. Using a pair of rewinds like the Elmo ones is a good idea because they can be kept at a good distance apart to allow you room to work.
What I will say is that I have never done a whole movie this way only sections of film whcih may have got a light scratch here and there. A whole reel though should be possible.
The type of soap I have used as been the liquid for washing dishes etc to allow the breakdown of surface tension so that you dont get water spots when the film dries. You used to be able to buy "wetting agents" for the final rinse when doing home processing. Another possibility might be a couple of drops of the rinse aid used in dishwashers as this does the same thing.

Kev.

--------------------
GS1200 Xenon with Elmo 1.0...great combo along with a 16-CL Xenon for that super bright white light.

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John Clancy
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1954
From: Cornwall
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted November 06, 2004 04:53 PM      Profile for John Clancy   Author's Homepage   Email John Clancy   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I've done plenty of complete 600ft reels and can't say that I've had a problem with dust getting stuck in the emulsion. But then I don't soak the film. I've unspooled whole reels (200 footers), thrown the whole lot in a basin of water and then hung it up to dry and there's been no perceptible difference in results apart from getting water marks on the film afterwards! So I just stick to a soft wetted cloth, then hang the film up to dry.

It's worth a try but I would recommend being careful with your first few attempts.

--------------------
British Film Collectors Convention home page www.bfcc.biz. The site is for the whole of the film collecting hobby and not just the BFCC.

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Michael De Angelis
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1261
From: USA
Registered: Jul 2003


 - posted November 06, 2004 11:37 PM      Profile for Michael De Angelis   Email Michael De Angelis   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Kev & John,

This is wonderful news, but for how long does the film need remain wet before
drying?
Do you run it through quickly between the rewinds, or just dip-it quickly and then dry it off. And can you explain the technique as to avoid the spotting.

Best,
Michael

--------------------
Isn't it great that we can all communicate about this great
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John Clancy
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1954
From: Cornwall
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted November 07, 2004 08:54 AM      Profile for John Clancy   Author's Homepage   Email John Clancy   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I generally dampen about 50ft at a time and leave it hanging up for anything between 15 minutes to half an hour. If just a damp cloth has been used it is unusual to get any spotting visible on projection. Still, when the reel is complete a clean with a film cleaner should finish it off nicely.

--------------------
British Film Collectors Convention home page www.bfcc.biz. The site is for the whole of the film collecting hobby and not just the BFCC.

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Kevin Faulkner
Film God

Posts: 4071
From: Essex UK
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted November 07, 2004 12:04 PM      Profile for Kevin Faulkner         Edit/Delete Post 
I just sit the section in the warm water till the emulsion turns a slight milky colour which takes a couple of mins. Take it out then remove the excess water and dry it.

You will be amazed at the results and of course it permanent. [Smile]

Kev.

--------------------
GS1200 Xenon with Elmo 1.0...great combo along with a 16-CL Xenon for that super bright white light.

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Tom Mc Kenzie
Film Handler

Posts: 34
From: United Kingdom
Registered: Jul 2004


 - posted November 07, 2004 12:44 PM      Profile for Tom Mc Kenzie   Email Tom Mc Kenzie   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Kevin/John

I notice that you both mention leaving the film to
soak in water. Once the film is dry have either of you
noticed any sound loss to the films washed.

Also, are all striped films safe to do this too. I have had some trouble with stripe coming of later Derann prints and wonder would soaking the film do any damage to the adhesive holding the stripe to the film.

Tom

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Tony Milman
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1336
From: United Kingdom
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted November 08, 2004 01:51 PM      Profile for Tony Milman   Author's Homepage   Email Tony Milman   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
From the Kodak Web Site

Film-Cleaning Checklist
Here are some things to remember when cleaning films:

Use only well-known, high-quality film-cleaning solutions. Do not use alcohol of any kind because some types can soften the emulsion, or the base, and can increase the risk of abrasion during the cleaning process. Alcohols are not good oil solvents because they can remove magnetic striping, are highly flammable, and can lead to moisture condensation.
On film with magnetic tracks, first check the cleaning solution on a short section of film. If a brown color appears on the cloth, stop! An approved film cleaner is suitable for use with most magnetic striping, provided contact is brief.
Use a soft, lintless cloth such as a deep-pile plush. Avoid using hardsurfaced textiles or exerting excessive pressure on the cleaning pad as these tend to abrade film and hold any ant in contact with the film surface. Also, do not use cloths from which dyes bleed. Fold all cut edges inside the pad to prevent depositing lint on the film.
Refold the cloth pad frequently so that a clean surface is always in contact with the film. Advance impregnated dry-tape webs frequently for the same reason.
When cleaning with cloth pads and solvent, wear protective gloves and make sure there is adequate ventilation in the work area.
If you need to clean a 35 mm print, be sure to relubricate it properly by edgewaxing, because cleaning solvents remove the lubricants along with the dirt. Make sure that the film-cleaning solvent is evaporated from the film surface before you wind the film onto the reel or core. Place some sort of lamp on the table so that it will reflect light from the film surface as you clean. This way, you can observe the solvent on the film and the point where it evaporates.
To speed cleaning, lengthen the film path between the cloth pad and the take-up reel. Use idler rollers near the ceiling or place the reels far apart. Remember, the faster the film is wound, the more frequently you will need to replace the cleaner on the cloth and rotate the pad. Never let the pad become so dry that wet cleaner is no longer seen on the film surface.
A cleaned print will remain that way only as long as the contributing factors that cause dirt problems are known and remedied-or prevented. To begin with, oil acts as a lubricant when applied to bearings and other mechanisms to reduce friction and wear. Otherwise, oil on film acts like a magnet, drawing dust, dirt, and gritty particles to the film surfaces and keeping them there. Oil can come from an over-oiled projector, worn bearings, or from inadequate or improper equipment cleaning. In every case, the oil finds its way to projector-component surfaces that come into contact with the film. Once on the film surface, oil continues to migrate and film mottle develops. Contact with dirty surfaces and airborne dust and dirt, with the help of static buildup, does the rest.

General Guidelines
Try to do the best you can to prevent dirt buildup in the work area. If cement splices are made, be sure the film particles from scraping are cleaned away from the film before it is wound up. Also keep the splicer and bench top clean. Dirt particles that look like large chunks of debris on the screen are almost microscopic in size when viewed on the film surface. You can't see most dirt particles on a bench top with the naked eye.

Not a Cure All Simple film cleaning does nothing to eliminate scratches and cinch marks because all such marks are actually forms of physical damage to the film surface. Therefore, preventative maintenance and cleanliness are the keys. Once the damage is done, efforts to recover a print can be very expensive and can produce results that are only marginally satisfactory. A film will look best to viewers if it has been properly cared for and has always been in a clean environment on carefully maintained equipment.

Lubrication
All motion-picture films destined for projection are required some level of lubrication. The lubricant incorporated in some 8 mm or 16 mm films may be sufficient, even after processing. Since all films may not be lubricated, it should be done to assure a smoother projection. Most laboratories do apply a lubricant when necessary. Caution: Solvent film cleaners or lubricants require adequate ventilation and avoidance of prolonged contact with skin. If these precautions cannot be met, employ a professional firm to clean and lubricate the films. Also, local municipal codes must be strictly adhered to in using and disposing of any solvents.

Theatrical 35 mm release prints require considerably higher levels of lubrication to provide trouble-free performance during projection nuns. Since the required amount of lubricant is excessive for overall application, it is applied to the perforated film edges only on the emulsion side. During windup, some of the lubricant transfers to the film edges on the support side. The edge-wax solution consists of 50 grams of paraffin wax dissolved into 1 1itre of inhibited 1.1.1 Trichloroethane and is usually applied by a special edge-waxing machine. For more information, refer to the SMPTE Recommended Practice, RP151-1989, Lubricatlon, Print.

--------------------
Tony

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Mark Todd
Film God

Posts: 3846
From: UK
Registered: Aug 2003


 - posted November 08, 2004 02:51 PM      Profile for Mark Todd   Email Mark Todd   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
EEE Hec, good old thermo film used to whip off the mag on waltons etc like no bodies business.
I`m pretty sure film renew did as well, I`not sure on film gaurd, its all a bloomin minefiled, what to clean me lovely 8 miilies with now!!!!!!!!!!
Best Mark.

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Paul Adsett
Film God

Posts: 5003
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted November 08, 2004 03:10 PM      Profile for Paul Adsett     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I agree with you Mark. The more you read, the more contradictory and confusing it gets. Talk about a load of Black Magic. As far as Kodak's warning about brown residue formed by the cleaner removing the stripe, if you take just about any super 8 sound film that has not been cared for, and just wind it thru a dry cotton cloth, you will get a load of brown crud on the cloth. I think this is loose oxide and dirt, and needs to be got off the film anyway.
As far as I am concerned, I'm going to stay with what works for me, and the best and safest household product I have found so far is the ArmorAll wipes. I am definately going to stay very far away from any professional film cleaning solutions.

--------------------
The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
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Tony Milman
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1336
From: United Kingdom
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted November 08, 2004 04:14 PM      Profile for Tony Milman   Author's Homepage   Email Tony Milman   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Paul,

Tried your "Armorall" product on some 16mm (sorry about the format)and I think the UK product hsa sat too long on the shelves of Halfords because they are not very moist. It did remove some grime but when I went back over the same film with Cresclean it took off a shed load of dirt. Will now try another reel using filmguard and see what is what.

This was a film that was suffering from considerable, well I am not sure how to describe it- twisting, warping or something so ....

--------------------
Tony

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Michael De Angelis
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1261
From: USA
Registered: Jul 2003


 - posted November 14, 2004 12:08 AM      Profile for Michael De Angelis   Email Michael De Angelis   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Kev, & John,

Have you tried the technique of wetting film to remove scratches
from color print stock as well?

Best,
Michael

--------------------
Isn't it great that we can all communicate about this great
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Tom Mc Kenzie
Film Handler

Posts: 34
From: United Kingdom
Registered: Jul 2004


 - posted November 14, 2004 03:39 AM      Profile for Tom Mc Kenzie   Email Tom Mc Kenzie   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Can the water treatment be used on all stocks of film
and will there be any damage to soundtrack?

Tom

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Kevin Faulkner
Film God

Posts: 4071
From: Essex UK
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted November 14, 2004 05:32 AM      Profile for Kevin Faulkner         Edit/Delete Post 
Water can be used on all types of film. All of the processing solutions that were used initially are water based so the film is designed to stand up to a good soaking. In fact you probably wouldnt believe some of the chemicals that are involved during film processing. The mag stripe will not be affected by re wetting of the film. Providing the stripe is in place properly to start with there will be no problems. The stripe is cemented directly to the film base side of the film so the softening of the emulsion will not cause a problem.
I have re-wet many types fo film from std B/W to various makes of colour on both poly and acetate stocks.
Have no fear for your films. Dont use boiling water and dont leave the film soaking for hours on end. Just be sensible about it all.

Kev [Smile]

--------------------
GS1200 Xenon with Elmo 1.0...great combo along with a 16-CL Xenon for that super bright white light.

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Paul Adsett
Film God

Posts: 5003
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted November 14, 2004 09:24 AM      Profile for Paul Adsett     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I received the MSDS sheet from ArmorAll. The stuff appears to be perfectly safe under normal usage conditions. Wash hands with soap and water after use, and use gloves if handling the product for prolonged periods. Non inflammable. Non carcinogenic. No medical conditions are known to be aggravated by exposure to the product.
Ingrediants are 30% to 40% silicone emulsion.( The rest is probably water, because the boiling point is noted to be 100C. )
Easily soluble in water.
So there we have it. The water content cleans the film and reduces the scratches, and the silicone content provides the lubricating effect. On the face of it, it appears that there is nothing in the ArmorAll that will damage the film.

--------------------
The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj

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Tom Mc Kenzie
Film Handler

Posts: 34
From: United Kingdom
Registered: Jul 2004


 - posted November 14, 2004 10:08 AM      Profile for Tom Mc Kenzie   Email Tom Mc Kenzie   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Kevin

I'll try out on afew films next week and report back

Tom

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John Clancy
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1954
From: Cornwall
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted November 15, 2004 03:09 AM      Profile for John Clancy   Author's Homepage   Email John Clancy   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Tom, the only problem I've ever had with wetting a film goes back to when I was learning how to do this years ago and successfully getting the emulsion stuck together. That's why I hang a wetted film all over the living room so the emulsion sides can't touch anywhere.

Like Kevin, I've thrown complete reels in bowls of water and waited until the emulsion goes a creamy colour. Although, I never really got the hang of this and generally ended up with water marks occasionally. Therefore I just stick to the dampened soft cloth. Possibly now quite as effective but where the emulsion scratches aren't too deep it seems to do the trick.

I've never had a problem with sound stripe being affected.

With regards to Thermofilm: I've never had this take off more of the stripe than just running the film through a cloth. There's always a bit of brown left on the cloth regardless. I tend to think this is just muck as the recording itself doesn't appear to be affected.

--------------------
British Film Collectors Convention home page www.bfcc.biz. The site is for the whole of the film collecting hobby and not just the BFCC.

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Tony Milman
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1336
From: United Kingdom
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted November 15, 2004 02:56 PM      Profile for Tony Milman   Author's Homepage   Email Tony Milman   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John,

Any chance I could marry your wife? [Big Grin]

--------------------
Tony

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Douglas Meltzer
Moderator

Posts: 4554
From: New York, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted November 15, 2004 05:39 PM      Profile for Douglas Meltzer   Email Douglas Meltzer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Tony,

Susie even has her own film collection!

Doug

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I think there's room for just one more film.....

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