8mm Forum: "Film Renew"

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Topic: "Film Renew"

Craig Hamilton
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 501
From: Luton
Registered: Sep 2004

posted November 18, 2004 07:43 PM

Sorry! But someone had to take this thread to 100 posts.

Craig [Big Grin]

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I dream of becoming a dealer!!!!!!
Is Perry's Movies for Sale.

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Tom Mc Kenzie
Film Handler

Posts: 34
From: United Kingdom
Registered: Jul 2004

posted November 21, 2004 10:18 AM

Hello Everyone

Well I cleaned a couple of movies using the water treatment recommended by Kevin and John last week and can report it is a stupendous success.

A 16mm black & white sound newsreel that was badly scratched before came up like new. A lot of the minor scatches are now completely gone.

A 200ft super 8 colour sound cartoon of Hanna Barbera which was also marked came out great as well with a noticable improvement
in picture.

I used a damp lint cloth and wet, cleaned and dried approx 3ft at a time. I can tell you it was very time consuming and my hands and back ache Ouch!!. A lot of oxide came off with whatever dirt was on the film. Is this to be expected? I havent noticed any change in the sound of both movies.

I left to dry for a day and then cleaned with Thermofilm as directed and then left for another day before projecting.

Have anybody used the total immersion in water outlined by Kevin?
I reckon it would save a lot of time but am still a little apprehensive. Have any other collectors used this method.

Is it safe and how long time wise do you leave the film approximately?

Regards

Tom

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Michael De Angelis
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1261
From: USA
Registered: Jul 2003

posted November 21, 2004 01:21 PM

Tom,

This is great news. I too would like to try the total immersion process,
but I do not wish to deal with water spotting marks on the film.

Michael

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Isn't it great that we can all communicate about this great
hobby that we love!

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Kevin Faulkner
Film God

Posts: 4071
From: Essex UK
Registered: Jun 2003

posted November 21, 2004 01:56 PM

Leave the film for just a few minutes. It only has to be long enough to soften the emulsion. This you can normally see as the emusion does turn slightly milky looking when it has absorbed water. Just make sure that if you are doing a reel of film that you have the space to dry it etc. If you havent then do short sections which you can easily manage.

Kev

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GS1200 Xenon with Elmo 1.0...great combo along with a 16-CL Xenon for that super bright white light.

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Chris Quinn
Master Film Handler

Posts: 372
From: England, Bedfordshire.
Registered: Nov 2003

posted November 21, 2004 03:51 PM

Kev,
How about hard water areas, in this case like myself would it be wise to use distilled or bottled water?

Chris.

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The other half thinks i'm up to something. Shes right of course.

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Kevin Faulkner
Film God

Posts: 4071
From: Essex UK
Registered: Jun 2003

posted November 21, 2004 04:50 PM

This is where some form of wetting agent is a must. You could try a photo shop for some Final Rinse Aid such as Ilford sold or you could use a couple of drops of washing up liquid. Not so much that you get froth though you dont need to give your precious film a foam bath [Big Grin]

Make sure that the film is reasonably free of droplets before finally drying by wiping down with a lint free cloth etc.

Kev [Smile]

--------------------
GS1200 Xenon with Elmo 1.0...great combo along with a 16-CL Xenon for that super bright white light.

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John Clancy
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1954
From: Cornwall
Registered: Jun 2003

posted November 22, 2004 02:12 AM

Alternatively Chris, just get yourself a Brita water filter. They're worthwhile in any case as you won't get any fur in your kettle with filtered water. Should make the wife happy and she won't suspect you've purchased it to aid cleaning your films.

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British Film Collectors Convention home page www.bfcc.biz. The site is for the whole of the film collecting hobby and not just the BFCC.

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Chris Quinn
Master Film Handler

Posts: 372
From: England, Bedfordshire.
Registered: Nov 2003

posted November 22, 2004 12:27 PM

Good idea John, but think she may suspect when i start hanging out to dry. [Big Grin]

Chris.

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The other half thinks i'm up to something. Shes right of course.

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Tom Mc Kenzie
Film Handler

Posts: 34
From: United Kingdom
Registered: Jul 2004

posted November 23, 2004 10:37 AM

Hello

I will experiment with Domestic cold water on a short 200ft film tonight and report back.

I am going for two minute soak so have my egg timer, lint clothes and hair dryer at the ready.

Tom

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Kevin Faulkner
Film God

Posts: 4071
From: Essex UK
Registered: Jun 2003

posted November 27, 2004 04:29 AM

I am wondering if this method will help to restore warped film. If the emulsion takes up some moisture again it might help to flatten it out on drying.
I Have reel 1 from the King Kong feature which has been damaged by film cleaner and it make me wonder if this might be the answer.
I will let you know.

Kev.

--------------------
GS1200 Xenon with Elmo 1.0...great combo along with a 16-CL Xenon for that super bright white light.

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Tony Milman
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1336
From: United Kingdom
Registered: Jun 2003

posted November 27, 2004 04:54 AM

Kev,

I have been experimenting since your article on soaking film We have a Bosch dishwasher that has a delicates wash and I have found that a 200ft extract will fit around the upper basket without the emulsion touching.

A 20 min wash on delicate using just Tesco dishwasher tablet had the most amazing results. The film dried without spotting and did not stick to anything.

I doubt it would work in the bottom basket as there is too much heat.

The film slipped through the projector afterwards and the picture was as clean as anything.

I don't recommend others try it except on a worthless piece of film.

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Tony

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Douglas Meltzer
Moderator

Posts: 4554
From: New York, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted November 27, 2004 08:52 AM

Keep us informed, Tony. I've bookmarked the dishwasher category on eBay just to get ready. I hear the Bauer dishwashers are much quieter..... [Big Grin]

Doug

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I think there's room for just one more film.....

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Kevin Faulkner
Film God

Posts: 4071
From: Essex UK
Registered: Jun 2003

posted November 28, 2004 05:35 AM

BLANK by any chance Tony? You should have put that on here on April the first [Big Grin]

Kev.

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GS1200 Xenon with Elmo 1.0...great combo along with a 16-CL Xenon for that super bright white light.

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Craig Hamilton
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 501
From: Luton
Registered: Sep 2004

posted December 06, 2004 04:55 AM

Tony, how are you getting on with the Baby oil test? [Wink]

Craig

--------------------
I dream of becoming a dealer!!!!!!
Is Perry's Movies for Sale.

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Tony Milman
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1336
From: United Kingdom
Registered: Jun 2003

posted December 06, 2004 05:57 AM

Craig,

Sorry for the delay in posting but just back from Casualty. Seems I got confused and applied WD40 to the wife....... [Big Grin]

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Tony

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John Clancy
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1954
From: Cornwall
Registered: Jun 2003

posted December 06, 2004 07:21 AM

Craig, make sure it's not just any old baby oil; has to be Johnsons. I've just been over to the local "Boots The Chemist" and cleared their shelves (they only had one left!). I'll be putting good ol' Johnsons to the test this evening.

The advantage with this stuff that there should be no way it can detrimentally affect the paste stripe. It's so soft and gentle it wouldn't hurt a baby's bottie.

--------------------
British Film Collectors Convention home page www.bfcc.biz. The site is for the whole of the film collecting hobby and not just the BFCC.

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Tony Milman
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1336
From: United Kingdom
Registered: Jun 2003

posted December 06, 2004 10:53 AM

John,

I hate to correct you but I would avoid J's if I were you. I did some market research today and found that Sainsbury (who are on a BOGOF promotion) is the purest form. If you look at the J's ingredients you will see a number of chemicals are also included in their product so I am going to stick with Sainsbury,.

Just like Armorall, when I went to get some there was only 1 bottle left so I suspect there are more cine enthusiasts reading this thread that you or I realise.

Well, as a test I am taking 3 weeks off work over Xmas and immersing myself holding a reel of colour sound made up of polyester and acetate just to check that nothing comes off....

[Smile]

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Tony

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John Clancy
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1954
From: Cornwall
Registered: Jun 2003

posted December 06, 2004 02:07 PM

Well I never knew there was anything better out there than Johnsons Tony. I'll call in at Sainsbury's on the way home and check it out.

If it's cheap enough I'd like to hook a six gallon drum up to the dishwasher and run it through that using your theory of the film on the top tray, not the bottom because it's too hot.

Now should I stick a 3 in 1 tablet in with it? Will the film reel be okay?

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British Film Collectors Convention home page www.bfcc.biz. The site is for the whole of the film collecting hobby and not just the BFCC.

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Kevin Faulkner
Film God

Posts: 4071
From: Essex UK
Registered: Jun 2003

posted December 06, 2004 03:00 PM

I have done some tests after hearing about the baby oil and find that its best applied in the wetgate mode. A small drop goes a long way and I think from tests that it gives its best results if applied warm.
A warning though, if it is liberally applied the GS turns into an instant bubble making machine because the first sprocket wheel pushes out the bubbles which have formed in the sprocket holes.
Gives as good a result as WD40 does but does smell nicer.

Kev.

--------------------
GS1200 Xenon with Elmo 1.0...great combo along with a 16-CL Xenon for that super bright white light.

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Mike Peckham
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1461
From: West Sussex, UK.
Registered: Jun 2003

posted December 06, 2004 03:22 PM

Kev

My friend Hans had a similar thing happen when he tried wet gating with Fairy Liquid, bubbles came out of every orifice on the GS 1200. I tried to convince him that it proboably wasn't a good idea but he was certain that he knew best. Turned out he was right because the film was squeaky clean after the first application and positively sparkled after the second.

I never thought Hans that Judicious... [Wink]

Mike

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Auntie Em must have stopped wondering where I am by now...

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Tony Milman
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1336
From: United Kingdom
Registered: Jun 2003

posted December 06, 2004 04:21 PM

Mike,

But Hans probably knows my friend Thartdo

That's Thartdo Tishes

Justlubed up a 16mm with the Wilton oil and about to see if she maked the same noises as the wife. [Eek!]

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Tony

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Mike Peckham
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1461
From: West Sussex, UK.
Registered: Jun 2003

posted December 06, 2004 04:35 PM

Tony

Actually he has mentioned Thartdo Tishes, I think they both know Softas Yerfase. [Big Grin]

Mike

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Auntie Em must have stopped wondering where I am by now...

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Tom Mc Kenzie
Film Handler

Posts: 34
From: United Kingdom
Registered: Jul 2004

posted December 07, 2004 07:16 AM

Hello All

I have done a few experiments on and have made a few improvement and adjustments on the water treatment which I find makes it easier to handle. I have got hold of an empty plastic water cooler bottle. You know the type that dispenses water at work. Well, I sealed the end were the water comes out and then cut two holes approximately 3 inches across one at the top and one at the bottom of the bottle.

I then positioned the bottle on an old work bench in the garage making sure it doesn’t move around and filled it with water.

I use two rewind arms one unwinds and dunk the film into the water bottle the other to rewind onto a reel. I time the length of time the film is in the water with an egg timer at roughly 6-8 minutes.

This way I can process film in lengths of about 20-50 feet at a time. I find this method
more consistent, easier to do and less tiring. When I put the entire reel in it was too much to dry at one time and you could not get continuous results.

Some of the older films can be a bit dodgy to do. I found two or three of the Walton standard 8 and super single stripe releases that even a slight wetting removed a lot of oxide and that in some cases the stripe crumbled away completely. This was probe ably going to happen anyway so better out of my projector than in I say. The newer
Derann prints don’t seem to be a problem.

16mm cleans up the best as it is easier to handle and more robust and you can see the details more clearly.

I have to say as John recommends they need a good cleaning with film cleaner once they are dried to remove any water marks. You can not get the marks out any other way and if you rub too hard you damage the stripe.

I have noticed that the films I have done have improved so much they look like new. They are so much cleaner and scratch less. Even without the improvements in print its is great to think that all the dust and dirt is not going through our precious projectors
and damaging irreplaceable sound heads

Best

Tom

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Tony Milman
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1336
From: United Kingdom
Registered: Jun 2003

posted December 08, 2004 02:21 PM

Just posted about the WD40 on the efilm forum and boy they don't like the idea of it at all....nope not one little bit....

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Tony

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Kevin Faulkner
Film God

Posts: 4071
From: Essex UK
Registered: Jun 2003

posted December 08, 2004 04:34 PM

Well it's quite clear that they have no sense of adventure. If it wanst for the generations before us that did lots of experimenting we wouldnt have the products etc we have today.
WD40, Johnsons Baby Oil etc If we dont try we will never know.

Kev

--------------------
GS1200 Xenon with Elmo 1.0...great combo along with a 16-CL Xenon for that super bright white light.

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