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Author Topic: Super 8, 8mm projector recommendations for film to video transfers
Ted Langdell
Junior
Posts: 10
From: Marysville, CA
Registered: Oct 2005


 - posted November 01, 2005 01:14 AM      Profile for Ted Langdell   Email Ted Langdell   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
What would folks suggest as gentle, consistently focused, evenly lit across the gate 8mm and Super8 projectors for film to video transfers?

Ones with five-bladed shutters would be nice... but I may be able to use the "clearscan" type adjustable shutter speed in various video cameras to handle lack of one.

It's worked with a three-bladed shutter in 16mm transfers... nominally 1/72 of a second... with fine-tuning in .1 increments to minimize flicker as viewed as "white level bounce" on a waveform monitor.

Thanks in advance for your suggestions.

Specific comments re: good and not so good points about any suggestions and about the following projectors would also be appreciated, and comments about availability of belts, bulbs, etc:

Eumig Mark S 802 super single 8mm sound Projector

Eumig Mark S 810 Super Single 8mm Sound Movie Projector

Elmo ST-1200 Magnetic Super 8 Sound Recording Projector

Elmo ST-1200D (What's the difference between a 1200 and a 1200D?)

Bolex SM8 Super 8mm Projector

Bolex SM 80 8mm Projector

Paillard Bolex 18-5 Super 8 Projector
(I understand the 18-5L has a 5 blade shutter?)

Ted

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Jean-Marc Toussaint
Film God

Posts: 2169
From: France
Registered: Oct 2004


 - posted November 01, 2005 02:47 AM      Profile for Jean-Marc Toussaint   Author's Homepage   Email Jean-Marc Toussaint   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Ted and welcome to the Forum.
You can't go wrong with Eumig (800 series is great). Although they are fantastic, Elmos are a bit too bright and the hot spot becomes too obvious once the image is screened through one of these little video transfer boxes.
Yes, you can minimize flicker when tuning the shutter speed.

--------------------
The Grindcave Cinema YouTube Channel

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Ted Langdell
Junior
Posts: 10
From: Marysville, CA
Registered: Oct 2005


 - posted November 01, 2005 12:43 PM      Profile for Ted Langdell   Email Ted Langdell   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi, Jean-Marc,

Thanks for the reply. I appreciate the information.

I'd be projecting into an RCA TP-55 Broadcast Film Multiplexer with front-surface mirrors and high quality optics and then into a 3-chip camera... rather than into one of "those little transfer boxes."

That might enable the use of an Elmo without hot-spotting... but Eumig sounds attractive.

The camera I'll be using will have a "tuneable" shutter speed, originally intended for shooting computer CRT's, but which I've sound lets me get clean transfers from various projectors.

I'll eventually restore the RCA TK-29C telecine camera built into the multiplexer just for fun. (It works but needs new tubes.) Don't necessarily want to use a tube camera, although I could do so for that "1980's" film to video look.

Again, thanks.

Ted north of Sacramento, California

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Jean-Marc Toussaint
Film God

Posts: 2169
From: France
Registered: Oct 2004


 - posted November 01, 2005 01:23 PM      Profile for Jean-Marc Toussaint   Author's Homepage   Email Jean-Marc Toussaint   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Looks like you have quite an equipment to play with... [Wink]

Some dv cameras sold nowadays are actually much better than the old telecine ones, so, even with "one of these little boxes" you get excellent results (providing you can boost the colours afterwards - I use Final Cut for that).

So, yes, as far as Super8 is concerned, Elmo would be the choice. The ST1200 is a good workhorse and some members of this fine forum only swear by it. They'll be able to tell you the subtlety of the various suffixes.
For standard 8, I would go for one of the 800 Eumigs (these are also among the very few dual gauge machines able to project 8mm sound properly).

Although I have a soft spot for the Bolex SM8 (if it comes with its nice xenovaron lens), it's not as powerful as the ST.

JM

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The Grindcave Cinema YouTube Channel

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John Whittle
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 791
From: Northridge, CA USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted November 01, 2005 01:30 PM      Profile for John Whittle   Email John Whittle       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Ones with five-bladed shutters would be nice...
Considering the rest of your equipment, I'd suggest the Kodak M-100A Telecine projector since it has both the five blade shutter and a synch motor. Whatever you use, you should consider some time of either sych motor or phase lock loop control on the projector motor. A three blade shutter would be find for 20 fps silent transfers, I made a four blade shutter for a Bell & Howell regular8/super8 machine for 15fps along with a synch motor (and the necessary diffusion glass for the aerial image transfer on a Laird multiplexer).

With proper speed stability on a projector and the right camera and shutter speed, you could remove the shutter in the projector and use the camera shutter speed to do a full frame capture and then do your speed conversion in a computer.

If you re-tube a TK-29C, then you've got the patience of a saint doing the convergence!!!

John

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Ted Langdell
Junior
Posts: 10
From: Marysville, CA
Registered: Oct 2005


 - posted November 02, 2005 12:22 PM      Profile for Ted Langdell   Email Ted Langdell   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi, Jean-Marc and John,

Thanks for the ideas.

Just missed an SM-8 on eBay yesterday. I'm watching several Eumigs, and have been searching for the Kodak M-100A that John mentioned. So far, just finding references in lamp sales websites.

John: Did Kodak make several variations on the M-100, including the one you mention which would seem to be a "TV-M-100A"?

Do either of you know whether Bolex made 8 or Super 8 projectors with telecine shutters? I understand the 18-5L has one.

The TK-29 is a back-burner project. My friend Tim Stoffel has experience engineering these, and is going to come down from Reno and help with making it properly operational. If you're interested in 2" quadruplex tape machines and other vintage videotape gear, check his website at http://www.lionlmb.org/quadpark.html

I DO have experience operating tube cameras, and doing day-to-day maintenence including registration, back focus and yoke rotation where needed, so that's not intimidating. I just wouldn't do it without the proper tools.

Actually retubing the camera appears to be a pretty straightforward process, but you DO need to have some specific resources at hand to do the alignment, including test patterns and alignment generators, which I don't have.

I have a selection of used, matched vidicon sets to work with, but am scrounging around to see whether I can find a set of new-old stock tubes on someone's shelf in Northern Calif. or elsewhere. Most of the stations I've worked at in the region used RCA film islands and film pickup cameras so there may be some sitting on shelves in the engineering departments.

This camera can be equipped with saticons (currently installed) or plumbicons, so there are some options. depending on what we find.

I cranked it up over the weekend and it does make bars and an image if I shine a flashlight into one of the projector ports. The TP-7B slide projector has no lamps, so I'm not easily able to get an image into the camera. Yet.

And of course, RCA (defunct for a while now) lists ITS part number for the lamp, not the common three-letter designator, so I've got to do some poking around to find the right 300 watt lamp for the projector.

Google, here we come.

Again, thanks for the suggestions. I'll keep you posted on how things go.

Ted

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John Whittle
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 791
From: Northridge, CA USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted November 04, 2005 09:35 AM      Profile for John Whittle   Email John Whittle       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
And of course, RCA (defunct for a while now) lists ITS part number for the lamp, not the common three-letter designator, so I've got to do some poking around to find the right 300 watt lamp for the projector.
There were only a few choices if I have my "vintage years" correct. If the lamp base is smaller than that for a 16mm projector (DDB) then a CYE (400 watts) or CAW would probably fit and just adjust with a little ND or your variable filter wheel to get in range.

Kodak only made the one Super8 sound projector and your number is correct. I don't think Bolex ever made a telecine shutter but that doesn't mean that the 18-5 couldn't operate in that mode, just it was designed for it--it pre-dates home video by several years.

The problem with the old tube cameras is that they really do provide the "vintage video" look and things were forgot about years ago (before VCRs) come back as nightmares (comet tails, blurred fields, registration, gray scale tracking, etc). I'm always amazed that the tapes I made back in the 70s still play and even more amazed that I could watch them!

John

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Ted Langdell
Junior
Posts: 10
From: Marysville, CA
Registered: Oct 2005


 - posted November 04, 2005 12:03 PM      Profile for Ted Langdell   Email Ted Langdell   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi, John,

Thanks for confirming the "TV-M100A" designation for the telecine model of Kodak's projector.

I happened to start looking through the TP-7B's manual again... and down at the bottom of the second or so page was the lamp models used. Sooo... a little searching and a good price for a CXK was found at interlight.biz. which had just sent me a catalog in the mail... $45 later, including shipping, three are on the way to me.

Anyway... back to work.

Ted.

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