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Author Topic: Elmo GS1200 Xenon Fan problem
Clive Carmock
Film Handler

Posts: 69
From: London, UK
Registered: Feb 2005


 - posted December 23, 2006 02:47 PM      Profile for Clive Carmock   Email Clive Carmock   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I wonder if anyone here can offer advice. We were just watching a newly purchased feature print of Oh Mr Porter when the exhaust blower ont he projecter started to make a noise as if the fan blades were rubbing against somethign and then the fan stopped altogether.

Naturally I haven't run the machine in this state apart from a few seconds to test various functions. Turning on the power brings on the amplifier but no blower. The Xenon lamp strikes perfectly. Forward/reverse works correctly as does rewind.

I wonder if anyoen can give me some tips on finding the fan motor etc and the fan itself. I am happy to take the machien apart to try to repair. I am wondering if something is obstructing the fan which jammed and either the motor has burned out or blown an internal fuse?

It was in this 'noisy rubbing' state for no more than 10 seconds.

I do know the ESS switch had been knocked as that wasn't in the correct position initially.

Any help appreciated.

Regards
CLive

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Andrew Wilson
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 784
From: dundonald,belfast,co.antrim,northern ireland.
Registered: Jan 2006


 - posted December 25, 2006 12:08 PM      Profile for Andrew Wilson   Author's Homepage   Email Andrew Wilson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hello Clive.W

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Andrew Wilson
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 784
From: dundonald,belfast,co.antrim,northern ireland.
Registered: Jan 2006


 - posted December 25, 2006 12:10 PM      Profile for Andrew Wilson   Author's Homepage   Email Andrew Wilson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hello Clive.Welcome to the forum.Asked Kevin Faulkner;he's your man,with reguard that fan problem.Andy.

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Steven Sigel
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 701
From: Massachusetts
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted December 25, 2006 12:43 PM      Profile for Steven Sigel   Email Steven Sigel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
My guess is that the fan hung up on something and then the belt snapped.

First off -- DO NOT run the projector with the lamp struck for any length of time without fixing this, the xenon machines need the extra cooling.

If you take the back of the case off, you should be able to see the fan and determine if the belt is snapped - in which case you'll need to replace it. Then you'll need to figure out what the fan is hitting (alternately, the bearing in the fan might be shot, in which case, you'll need to replace that, or the entire fan).

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Clive Carmock
Film Handler

Posts: 69
From: London, UK
Registered: Feb 2005


 - posted December 25, 2006 06:20 PM      Profile for Clive Carmock   Email Clive Carmock   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks Steven. When I get back home I'll take the back off and have aproper look. I don't think it's a belt though in this case since if I turn the power on to the machine I hear a click from the speaker as the amplifier starts but there is not even a motor sound from the fan motor itself.

I wonder if the motors are each protected by a fuse that might have gone.

I wonder also if the ESS switch having been knocked could have caused a problem.

You are right about the lamp and not leaving it running - I just struck that for a few seconds to confirm what was/wasn't working on the machine. The only think not working is the cooling fan which seems totaly dead.

Hopefully this can be fixed as apart from that this has always been a great machine.

Regards
Clive

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Steven Sigel
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 701
From: Massachusetts
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted December 25, 2006 10:28 PM      Profile for Steven Sigel   Email Steven Sigel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Clive,

The fact that the motor works isn't terribly relevant. The GS-1200 has separate motors and belts for everything. I haven't had one apart in years, so I don't remember for sure, but I do know that the 16mm equivalent machine has a belt driven fan in the back, so it may well be...

Not sure what an ESS switch is so I can't tell if it might have anything to do with it.

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Kevin Faulkner
Film God

Posts: 4071
From: Essex UK
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted December 26, 2006 06:45 AM      Profile for Kevin Faulkner         Edit/Delete Post 
The fan on the GS is direct drive on the motor so there is nothing to snap.
To be quite honest I cant think what would cause it to make a noise and then stop unless one of the motor brushes has disintegrated and the brass contact had started to rub the motor armature.

I would double check first that the rubber roller which forms part of the drive for the flywheel hasnt perhaps fallen to pieces and jammed the motor.

Very strange one indeed but then I have also seen a strnage one this week with the GS from Andrew Wilson. He had the situation where he couldnt form the loop on his machine at all.

When I stripped down the machine I found that one of the shutter springs had snapped so the claw wasnt protruding through the gate to pull the film down. This is the first time I have seen this problem on an Elmo and lets hope it's the last.

Kev.

--------------------
GS1200 Xenon with Elmo 1.0...great combo along with a 16-CL Xenon for that super bright white light.

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Clive Carmock
Film Handler

Posts: 69
From: London, UK
Registered: Feb 2005


 - posted January 02, 2007 05:03 PM      Profile for Clive Carmock   Email Clive Carmock   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I know this sounds bad - btu due to things over Christmas etc I haven't had chance to whip the back of my GS1200 yet. However Kev if the motor is shot do you know if I'm likely to get a replacement fan motor for the Xenon model? Failing that I guess I need to look for one of those specialise motor rebuild places, thats if the motor has gone of course.

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Clive Carmock
Film Handler

Posts: 69
From: London, UK
Registered: Feb 2005


 - posted January 03, 2007 02:57 PM      Profile for Clive Carmock   Email Clive Carmock   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Well I have finally had chance to take the GS1200 apart and found the fault.

The reason the fan isnt runnign is not a motor problem thats just fine. What has happened is that the fan itself, which is made of plastic, has cracked in falf and 'opened' up slightly on it's shaft and is catching on the inside of the metal cylinder into which it fits.

Now my options are - replace the fan baldes (does anyone know if I am likely to find this as a spare part at all?) or try to take it apart and use strong glue liek araldite to glue it back together again.

It looks tricky to get out so if anyone has any ideas they'd be very wlecome! Apart from this the machine is in perfect condition.

Regards
Clive

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Ugo Grassi
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 506
From: Avellino (Italy)
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted January 03, 2007 05:28 PM      Profile for Ugo Grassi   Email Ugo Grassi   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
To find this spare part is hard and if you find it, it will be surely expensive!
May you post a photo of the defect? you can send it me via mail too...
At least if you disassemble the hole fan I may try to fix it. Of course you have to send it to me...

--------------------
Bye
Ugo

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Clive Carmock
Film Handler

Posts: 69
From: London, UK
Registered: Feb 2005


 - posted January 04, 2007 02:58 PM      Profile for Clive Carmock   Email Clive Carmock   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Ugo I'll try to get a picture of it in situ, however it looks hard to get the part out - I need to spend a bit more time examining it. Kevin might have some tips for me at which parts I need to remove to get the fan out.

Thanks for your kind offer. I probably could use some good epoxy resin glue such as Araldite to glue it together again if I can get it out.

basically there is a crack right the way across the circular plastic part which has then 'opened up' on the spindle and is hitting part of the metal can as the fan rotates. It had clearly got jammed particularly hard which made me suspect the motor originally. I was able to free it by hand and then the fan motor runs fine again except the fan makes a terrible noise as it spins hitting the metal, so I haven't run it for more than a couple of seconds. At least the motor is OK.

The fan on the Xenon version of the machine is more powerful than the standard version so I assume the fan blades are different and it's not just that it spins faster on that model.

I guess finding scrapped GS1200 Xenons to get a fan from will be nigh impossible so if I can't get hold of this as a spare part then I think the best option is repair with good strong glue.

Clive

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Ugo Grassi
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 506
From: Avellino (Italy)
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted January 04, 2007 07:24 PM      Profile for Ugo Grassi   Email Ugo Grassi   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
No. The fan is the same. The difference is in the supply vultage.
In these days I'm refurbishing a xenon machine with a supplementary tlittle transformer which works togheter that one main. Kevin says the latest version had this device. The fan works really fast, faster then my Xenon that - probably - is like your.
Just for your curiosity... that little yellow thing is the no standard transformer for the fan. On this machine the fan seems an airplane engine. Oh...the first time I switched on this Xenon GS it flyed away...
 -

[ January 05, 2007, 03:57 AM: Message edited by: Ugo Grassi ]

--------------------
Bye
Ugo

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Clive Carmock
Film Handler

Posts: 69
From: London, UK
Registered: Feb 2005


 - posted January 05, 2007 04:12 PM      Profile for Clive Carmock   Email Clive Carmock   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Ugo,

Yes my machien has a circuit board with a relay int he area you have the yellow transformer shown. Kevin hadn't seen that before - and I don't think we managed to conclusively work out what it was.

Do you know the best way to start to remove the fan assembly from the machine so I can look to repair it?

Regards
Clive

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Kevin Faulkner
Film God

Posts: 4071
From: Essex UK
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted January 05, 2007 04:31 PM      Profile for Kevin Faulkner         Edit/Delete Post 
Clive this is not any easy quick job to do. You have to remove all items infront of the fan such as the High Tension unit & the small board with the relay on it.

The fan motor is fixed to the main frame with 4 screws. Once these have been undone the whole fan assay should come free as one unit.

Round the edge of the fan which can be seen in that picture are 4 lugs which you need to pull up so that you can remove the end plate and at that point you will need to release the grub screws to remove the fan blade assay. In your case the fan blade assay will probably fall off. Araldite seems like a good idea to me but you will obviously have to keep the whole of that under pressure to keep the gap closed while it dries. Maybe some wire wrapped round it will work. Once its glued it will be worth putting some more glue over the join to give it some more strength.

I don't know of anywhere supplying these fans although it may just be possible that Wittners in Germany might have one. I think they have broken down some machines to use as spares.
I'm sure though that you will be able to do a fix on this without too much trouble.

Ugo correct when he says that the whole fan and motor assay are the same as in the std GS. The xenon has a higher voltage applied to the fan to give it more power (and noise). From your description on the added transformer and associated electronics I would think that Elmo have built in some form of control circuitry for the fan but without see the machine or circuit diagram it's difficult to say.

If you need any further help then do email me and we can talk it through on the phone. I don't live a million miles from you so can help if need be.

Kev.

--------------------
GS1200 Xenon with Elmo 1.0...great combo along with a 16-CL Xenon for that super bright white light.

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David Pannell
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1072
From: Horsham, West Sussex, UK
Registered: Nov 2004


 - posted January 05, 2007 05:10 PM      Profile for David Pannell   Author's Homepage   Email David Pannell   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
May I enter a word of caution here, please?

Whilst I am not familiar with the construction of this particular fan blade assembly and the actual type of plastic used, but please be aware that Araldite, - in any of its forms, - will not stick any of the so called "greasy" types of plastic. These are usually the "" 'thenes", ie. alkathene, polythene, etc. etc. In fact it is my understanding that no glue exists which is effective on these plastics.

--------------------
Dave.

Valves and celluloid - a great combination!
Early technology rules OK!

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Ugo Grassi
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 506
From: Avellino (Italy)
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted January 05, 2007 05:57 PM      Profile for Ugo Grassi   Email Ugo Grassi   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Yes my machien has a circuit board with a relay int he area you have the yellow transformer shown
A board with a relay? there??
So you have another different version of Xenon machine...

Normally the relay in the Xenon is under the igniter. The igniter is the white box you can see in the left of my photo.

Clive... I think you have a job for the Royal Mail. To send your GS to Kevin is the easier way.
Otherwise I can post here some photos about the disassembling of the fan in the Xenon.

--------------------
Bye
Ugo

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Kevin Faulkner
Film God

Posts: 4071
From: Essex UK
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted January 05, 2007 06:29 PM      Profile for Kevin Faulkner         Edit/Delete Post 
Ugo, The relal board I was talking about is the one on the igniter.

With that extra transformer, Clive has an extra board which has an IC mounted on it which I suspect is some form of fan control?

I'm happy for Clive to ship the machine to me or he could bring it along if he wishes.

David, Good point you make there.

Kev.

--------------------
GS1200 Xenon with Elmo 1.0...great combo along with a 16-CL Xenon for that super bright white light.

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Ugo Grassi
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 506
From: Avellino (Italy)
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted January 07, 2007 04:11 AM      Profile for Ugo Grassi   Email Ugo Grassi   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
that are the insides of the Xenon in my hands. The first is the Xenon I refurbished, the second is mine.
Xenon with supplementary trasformer

my Xenon

--------------------
Bye
Ugo

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Bill Parsons
Film Handler

Posts: 66
From: Brookland. UK
Registered: Jul 2004


 - posted January 07, 2007 04:30 AM      Profile for Bill Parsons   Email Bill Parsons   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
As a point of interest I thought you may like to know that during the production run of the Xenon GS1200 it was decided the lamp cooling was not sufficient, two things were done, one was to fit an extra transformer to increase the voltage to the fan motor, the other was a different fan, the fans in the later production machines are not the same, they have cupped blades, in my experience it is these fans that tend to break or sometimes shatter! I have managed to glue them with bostick ‘plastic glue’ and as Kevin suggested if it has cracked on the collar reinforce it with some wire.

Regards, Bill

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Kevin Faulkner
Film God

Posts: 4071
From: Essex UK
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted January 07, 2007 05:35 AM      Profile for Kevin Faulkner         Edit/Delete Post 
Thats very interesting info Bill. Having cupped blades would certainly add stress to the fan I would think.
I'm surprised that Elmo thought the original cooling was insufficient as my machine is really quite cool in use and you can certainly touch the metal parts round the lamp house minutes after the lamp is switched off.

Bill, Do these modded machines sound very noisy? Maybe that increased supply voltage is a bit OTT.

--------------------
GS1200 Xenon with Elmo 1.0...great combo along with a 16-CL Xenon for that super bright white light.

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Bill Parsons
Film Handler

Posts: 66
From: Brookland. UK
Registered: Jul 2004


 - posted January 07, 2007 05:45 AM      Profile for Bill Parsons   Email Bill Parsons   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yes Kevin these machines are much noisier, not unlike an aircraft taking off (slight exaggeration) I have a mark 1 machine the cooling seems ok to me, but in the Elmo tech bulletin I have somewhere it appears they thought the cooling was insufficient.
Bill.

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Kevin Faulkner
Film God

Posts: 4071
From: Essex UK
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted January 07, 2007 05:56 AM      Profile for Kevin Faulkner         Edit/Delete Post 
Bill, Mine is a late machine and I have just checked it and can see that it also has the cupped blades but no added transformer. I have turned the fan by hand and can't see any breaks round the edge. I wonder if the fans last better without the added transformer to increase the voltage/speed? and therefore the stress. Maybe it would be better to remove the transformer and wire it back the way they were originally?

Here is a picture sent to me by Clive of his broken fan for those interested in seeing what had happened.

 -

--------------------
GS1200 Xenon with Elmo 1.0...great combo along with a 16-CL Xenon for that super bright white light.

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Ugo Grassi
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 506
From: Avellino (Italy)
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted January 07, 2007 05:58 AM      Profile for Ugo Grassi   Email Ugo Grassi   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Elmo tech report???

uhhhhhh I want it! Please Bill send me a copy
ugo(point)grassi(at)email(point)it
[Smile]

--------------------
Bye
Ugo

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Bill Parsons
Film Handler

Posts: 66
From: Brookland. UK
Registered: Jul 2004


 - posted January 07, 2007 06:31 AM      Profile for Bill Parsons   Email Bill Parsons   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Kevin, I have only encountered about 5 of these fans broken in all my years of servicing these machines, maybe you would be best with the extra cooling rather than reducing the speed, Elmo seemed to think the lamps would last longer this way!

Ugo I will try and find my Elmo tech bulletins, I have several somewhere, but have not been able to find a lot of things after having my new workshop last year.

Bill.

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Dimitrios Kremalis
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 129
From: Athens - Greece
Registered: Oct 2004


 - posted January 07, 2007 08:36 AM      Profile for Dimitrios Kremalis   Email Dimitrios Kremalis   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
So Bill your final word is not to remove the additional transformer and wire it back despite the much increased noise and additional stress to the fan? Is there any proof (e.g. comparison test) on the prolonged lamp life?

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