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Topic: Cleaning lines on film?

Osi Osgood
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From: Mountian Home, ID.
Registered: Jul 2005

posted July 31, 2007 09:03 PM

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I have a very nice print of "Flying Tigers' (suprisingly sharp!), but it does have a number of lines, and of course, lines attract dust over time.

Now, while we can never get rid of the lines, we can "clean" the lines. I did this sucessfully once before on a print as an experiment, but I've forgotten what soap and what concentration of soap to water i used.

Hows about some help out there? I know it can be delicate, as if you have too much soap in the water, it can lift off the magnetic track, so I would appreciate any good help, as I know that this print can look much better.

Thanks ahead of time

OSI

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John Clancy
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From: Cornwall
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posted August 01, 2007 04:40 AM

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Are these 'lines' emulsion scratches Osi? If so, it's just water (i.e. run the film through a damp cloth) that is required.

For anyone else reading this that hasn't tried this in the past the film has to be hung up to dry before cleaning and re-spooling. Failure to do this results in the emulsion sticking to the base side of the film and it will be ruined.

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Michael De Angelis
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posted August 01, 2007 08:54 AM

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Hi John,

If the scratches are
black scratches, is it possible to
handle the film by using the
wet cloth method?

In a previous post a couple of
years ago, I believe
their was a method to immerse
parts or segments of the film in a mild soapy dish
detergent and wait until the film appeared
milky and then remove it to dry. Once this was
complete, it was OK to proceed onto the next section?

I think that Kev, suggested this method?

Or is this used for something other than
which we are speaking?

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Kevin Faulkner
Film God

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From: Essex UK
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posted August 01, 2007 04:01 PM

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Michael that is correct.

If however the scratches are black they are base scratches and you will need a cleaner which leaves an oil on the surface to fill in the scratches.

Bring on the WD40 [Big Grin]

[Big Grin]

Kev.

[ August 02, 2007, 08:01 AM: Message edited by: Kevin Faulkner ]

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John Clancy
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From: Cornwall
Registered: Jun 2003

posted August 02, 2007 03:45 AM

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Kev's not entirely serious about WD40 chaps but it does work (apparently!). Film Guard seems to be the most respected modern day film cleaner and preservative on the market today. This will cover light base scratches.

Personally I still use Thermofilm but you're unlikely to find it for sale anywhere nowadays.

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Michael De Angelis
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posted August 02, 2007 10:53 AM

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If there are base scratches on
the film, then the water treatment
method must be used with
an oil treatment follow-up?

Or will the water treatment
remove or recondition the
film to hide the base scratches?

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John Clancy
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Posts: 1954
From: Cornwall
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posted August 03, 2007 03:41 AM

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Only works for minor emulsion scratches Michael. However, I always lubricate a water treated film with Thermofilm once it has finished the drying process just to get rid of any dust that will inevitably have landed on the film.

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Kevin Faulkner
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From: Essex UK
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posted August 03, 2007 08:15 AM

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Base scratches will not be helped by the water treatment. That only works on Emulsion scratches. The water makes the Gelatin swell to help close the gap and at the same time it rounds the edges of the scratch. With the lack of hard edges the light doenst tend to scatter about so much within the scratch making it less obvious on projection.

The base scratch treated with a lubricant is simply just filled in with oil or the like and provided the oil and film base have the same refractive index the scratch will disappear.

Kev.

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GS1200 Xenon with Elmo 1.0...great combo along with a 16-CL Xenon for that super bright white light.

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Michael De Angelis
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posted August 03, 2007 09:28 AM

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Gentlemen,

Thank you for the
extensive description
in the treatment and
restoration of scratched film.

As always it is very
helpful.

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Isn't it great that we can all communicate about this great
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Osi Osgood
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From: Mountian Home, ID.
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posted August 03, 2007 10:07 AM

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Yes, thanks for all the feedback concerning scratches! It should help immeasurably! (Though i doubt I'll use WD40!)

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Kevin Faulkner
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From: Essex UK
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posted August 04, 2007 04:29 PM

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Osi, why not it smells the same as film guard. KW has used it for years.

Kev.

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GS1200 Xenon with Elmo 1.0...great combo along with a 16-CL Xenon for that super bright white light.

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Mark Todd
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posted August 04, 2007 05:58 PM

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Smells a lot more serious than filmgaurd. I tried it on some 16mm a few years ago in the garden on a still day and was ill for about a week. Also as we said who knows colour wise long term.
You Were JOKING kev?

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Kevin Faulkner
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From: Essex UK
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posted August 04, 2007 06:05 PM

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You mean like 2.22 which cause premature fade [Eek!]

[Eek!]

Kev.

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Brad Miller
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From: Dallas, TX, USA
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posted August 04, 2007 07:56 PM

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WD40 has been proven to leech the color dyes from film. Use at your own risk.

And for the umpteenth bazillionth time Kevin, no FilmGuard is not WD40. [Roll Eyes]

[Roll Eyes]

It doesn't smell the same and if you compare the MSDS sheets you will see WD40 has a high flash point (meaning it will ignite under high temperatures).

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Kevin Faulkner
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From: Essex UK
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posted August 05, 2007 05:23 AM

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I was joking guys....tongue in cheek etc. And sorry Brad it must be FilmRenew that it smells like.....get the 2 products mixed up. No offense meant.

While we are on the subject of WD40 lets put one thing straight. Craig Hamilton left four foot of super 8 film immersed in WD40 for just under a whole year. There was no dye leeching, it didn't attack the stripe and it consequently projected that loop faultlessly and the film looked perfect.

As Brad says "Yes use at your own risk"!

One of the problems we have here in the UK is that the 2 best products are made and sold in the US but cost of shipping to the UK and now the restriction on shipping these products out of the US means its difficult for us to get our hands on and use.

One source of FilmGuard in the UK charges very high prices for it and will he be able to get some more.
Also what tests have been done with these products on their Archival properties as this is what happened with 2.22. Great cleaner but caused long term fade only apparent after many years?

For me I need a good cleaner which I know wont cause long term fade.

Sorry to ask that question Brad but I would be interested to know the answer.

I had many films in my collection which I had treated with 2.22 and most of those faded quicker than non treated films and this even happened on Fuji stock (supposedly non fade) which really surprised me. I know other collectors which have noted exactly the same thing.

I know we have touched on all this before but some answers would be great as this is an area I'm particularly sensitive about as I have lost a lot of non replaceable film titles.

Kev.

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GS1200 Xenon with Elmo 1.0...great combo along with a 16-CL Xenon for that super bright white light.

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Osi Osgood
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From: Mountian Home, ID.
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posted August 05, 2007 09:29 PM

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I'm concerned as well,as I am just about out of ECCO 1500 anti static film cleaner. I have heard a lot of good about "Film-Guard", but before I store up on it, has anyone seen any long term damage to film by using this product, (color loss, film becoming brittle?)

All the best!!

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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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Dan Lail
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From: Loganville, Georgia, USA
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posted August 05, 2007 10:29 PM

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I have been using Filmguard for about a year with excellent results. I have cleaned tons of film and still have not used the whole bottle. It cost anywhere from $30 to $40 dollars a bottle in the US plus shipping.

In the post link below Brad says it's been used in theatres for 20 years.

" How Long Has Filmfuard Been In Use?"
http://8mmforum.film-tech.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=002456

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John Clancy
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posted August 06, 2007 03:31 AM

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I'm another collector who has noticed the apparent rapid fading to 2.22 treated films. It could be coincidence but is certainly more noticeable on the titles I treated with this stuff than any others in my collection.

I still have a bottle of 2.22 if anyone wants to make me an offer... thought not!

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Kevin Faulkner
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From: Essex UK
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posted August 06, 2007 03:35 AM

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NO THANKS John!

There's a number of products on the market and yes they may have been in use in theaters for 20 yrs or more but we have to remember as collectors that most of those prints will do their run on the circuit and then end up bandsawed or the like.

I want to be able to use a product on my films now and know that it wont be causing fade on my films in twenty years time like has happened with 2.22.

Thats my concern with these products. I have used FilmGuard and FilmRenew as a general cleaner/lubriant and both are excellent but has any long term Archival tests been carried out with them. This also applies to products such as Cresclean and Derann's LFC.

Kev.

--------------------
GS1200 Xenon with Elmo 1.0...great combo along with a 16-CL Xenon for that super bright white light.

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Mark Todd
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posted August 06, 2007 04:32 AM

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Its definate on the 2.22 fade as you ofetn get films and the owner has written on treated with 2.22 and 90%+ of the time they are worse than similar uncoated prints.
Regarding filmgaurd, although nothing is certain in any sphere for me the fact that its to my mind just generally less toxic and more user friendly and the kinder user option will probaly reflect on how it treats films in the long term if you will, so kinder on them too.
On 20 odd years etc I think if you treat a film you buy yourself and get 20 years out of the print your not doing too bad whatever, persoanlly I don`t think its going to be an issue for myself, ie 20 years yet to run, no chance.
All the products have various merits but for me there is only one I would use and its got nothing to do with Brad, its Filmgaurd all the way.
best Mark.

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Brad Miller
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posted August 07, 2007 10:55 PM

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Kevin, I still have the original films that were treated with FilmGuard 20 years ago. I would get two identical new copies of trailers and clean one with FilmGuard and leave the other one totally untouched. Today, the FilmGuarded prints still run like new, but the ones left untouched are extremely brittle, have poor registration and are generally warped or buckled in some manner. Even archives use it on their prints as well as nitrate! You would think that might be a bad idea, but it isn't as it makes the film run much smoother and that means less of a chance of something jamming and a fire initiated. There are also archives that use FilmGuard in reprinting old footage, sometimes being scanned one frame at a time. So to answer your archival question, yes I think it is pretty safe. It is also not haz mat, so it can be shipped via air freight.

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Graham Sinden
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posted August 08, 2007 07:27 AM

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Hi ,

Changing the subject slightly. Can I coat a film with Filmguard which has previously been done with Cresclean.

Since buying some Filmguard, ive preferred that.

So back to the question, Can I Filmguard a film over cresclean or do I need to remove all the Cresclean first?

Graham S

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Kevin Faulkner
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From: Essex UK
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posted August 10, 2007 07:35 PM

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Brad, that's just the info we needed [Smile]

[Smile]

Blimey is there still nitrate stock in existance [Eek!]

[Eek!]

Kev.

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Joe Caruso
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posted August 11, 2007 07:49 AM

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Just a random thought, if the combination of a soapy water and filmguard will aid somewhat in emulsion perhaps, then could this same be a probable start to solving VS? - Shorty

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Michael De Angelis
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posted August 11, 2007 09:25 AM

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I did not want to
go so way off topic
regarding Nitrate and
vinegar,so I posted
a under a new topic
under the 8mm forum.

I hope that it will be
in the proper category.

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Isn't it great that we can all communicate about this great
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