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Author Topic: That annoying scratch!!!
Osi Osgood
Film God

Posts: 10204
From: Mountian Home, ID.
Registered: Jul 2005


 - posted May 08, 2008 05:54 PM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Tom, (on his comments concerning his copy of Police Academy 2), brought up an annoying problem that we have all ran into ...

A perfectly good projector, that we can usually trust to never scratch our films, and yet, out of nowhere, there's a nasty scratch on a well beloved print of ours ...

... and we can't seem to find a single reason for the damned projector to scratch!!

How about you guys?

Are there any single main areas where a projector will scratch
a print, nine times out of ten?

I have had a few very reliable, never die projectors that for some reason, leave scratches and upon looking at the whole film path, I can't for the life of me find out where the damned thing is scratching.

One thing that has just occurred to me is ...

Could it potentially be the film being pulled to tight or snapped about?

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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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Kevin Faulkner
Film God

Posts: 4071
From: Essex UK
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted May 08, 2008 06:18 PM      Profile for Kevin Faulkner         Edit/Delete Post 
What type of scratch is it, Continuous, straight, small, right down the frame or partial.
Mores to the point what projector did you use and did you see it as you were viewing and are you sure it wasn't there from the viewing before.

A lot of scratches are caused by some crap build up at some point in the film path which is why the gate etc should be cleaned at every viewing.

This is one of the reasons I like the Elmo's as you can get to the entire film path for cleaning and there are not too many places for oxide and other debris to build up. On the other hand you must keep and eye for wear in the guides of all Elmo's.
All Elmo models have well documented areas of wear and providing they are kept an eye on dont normally give problems.
On my GS the guides have been modified to combat that issue.

The Eumig's can be quite bad round the soundhead area as its very difficult to clean so most people tend to leave that area alone.

Let us know the type of scratch as suggested above and maybe it will give a clue as to where you should look.

Kev.

--------------------
GS1200 Xenon with Elmo 1.0...great combo along with a 16-CL Xenon for that super bright white light.

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Osi Osgood
Film God

Posts: 10204
From: Mountian Home, ID.
Registered: Jul 2005


 - posted May 08, 2008 07:50 PM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Kevin,

You had a good point which for the life of me, escaped me.

The scratch doesn't appear the first time through, but it does the second time through, so it's most certainly AFTER it passes the film gate (apeture?), either that, or right there at the film gate.

Hmmmm!

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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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Kevin Faulkner
Film God

Posts: 4071
From: Essex UK
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted May 09, 2008 04:10 AM      Profile for Kevin Faulkner         Edit/Delete Post 
What type of scratch is it? If it's partially down the screen then its likely to be round the gate area or the bottom loop is touching something. If its a continuous scratch then it could be round the head area or anywhere from there to the take-up spool. In other words is it getting scratched during the intermittent movement (Gate area) of the film or during the continuous movement which it should be once it enters the heads. Make sure that all rollers are turning properly.

Kev.

--------------------
GS1200 Xenon with Elmo 1.0...great combo along with a 16-CL Xenon for that super bright white light.

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Tom A. Pennock
Master Film Handler

Posts: 250
From: Battle Creek, MI. USA
Registered: Apr 2004


 - posted May 15, 2008 02:40 PM      Profile for Tom A. Pennock     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yes, I agree 100% with Kev that Eumig's are notorious for scratching because of the inability to get at the soundhead area to clean. Material build's up in this area and I think that is indeed the problem I had. I have a Eumig Optical/Magnetic projector and will NOT use the magnetic portion of this unit any longer. I will only use the optical part of that unit. This unit put a really nasty emulsion scratch on my reel six of "The Black Stallion" to the point of having to buy a new replacement reel six. Later I found out that it was NOT only this reel that got scratched but a reel in my print of "Blue Hawaii" feature too and a Drive In Snack Bar trailer too that was really expensive. I had the unit in for service and it cost a fortune and it still scratched. So I will no longer use this unit for magnetic prints. Just optical. I have another Eumig that is a "new/old stock" brand new projector and it's perfect for magnetic prints. I think the problem is because the soundhead rides on the film's soundtrack stripe and debris was built up there. I think it might be the pads in the soundhead area. That is what is causing the scratching. Debris does build up on the Eumig's especially. Then again though a friend of mine in Ann Arbor had a Elmo ST 1200 unit. I brought two brand new Viacom features down there to watch with him. Both features were scratched by his Elmo. He felt terrible about it.

Funny thing about a dealer by the name of Dominick Vercillo. Dominick ran Reel To Reel Films out of NYC. He was always polite and very nice and said to send $113.00 for the replacement reel number six of "The Black Stallion". I waited for about six months for the film to come. It did not come!!! I contacted Dominick and he then said he never ordered the replacement reel. I asked Dominick if I could have a refund for the $113.00. No, he apparently spent it on something else. So he said you MUST take something else (merchandise) instead of getting a refund. So I ended up having to buy $113.00 worth of Ecco film cleaner!!! Then I re-ordered the reel six from Dave Thomas and had it within about a month.

Another friend of mine had a MINT scope full length Derann print of "The Sound Of Music". He also had an ElmoST1200 and that unit put a really nasty emulsion scratch on the main title sequence of this film. He was so upset I thought he was going to cry. I can understand this. We have ALL been there.

I think eventually a film is going to get scratched. As gates and other areas of the projector's wear scratching will indeed occur. I sometimes question if it is indeed avoidable. I don't think so. It's going to happen eventually because of wear on the unit's or debris built up. Even if you clean obsessively like I do.

--Tom

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Jean-Marc Toussaint
Film God

Posts: 2392
From: France
Registered: Oct 2004


 - posted May 15, 2008 03:58 PM      Profile for Jean-Marc Toussaint   Author's Homepage   Email Jean-Marc Toussaint   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Another word of caution about Eumigs: watch out for the film gate. It's slightly narrower than on other projectors (particularly on the 7XX and 8XX series), giving a ratio of roughly 1.28. Crap can build up there as well and you won't notice scratching on your beloved print unless you screen it with another machine giving the proper 1.33 ratio...
But, as Mr Elmo says, keep the path clean, slightly lubricated may I add, and you should be OK.

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The Grindcave Cinema Website

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Paul Adsett
Film God

Posts: 5003
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted May 15, 2008 06:01 PM      Profile for Paul Adsett     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Well I have to say that I have never had a single scratch from any of my Eumig projectors. Yes, the 700 and 800 series sound heads are inaccessible for cleaning without some diassembly of the head assembly, which is definately possible but a little time consuming to do on a regular basis. A quick blast from a pressurized air can,down the sound head chute, after every reel will probably prevent 90% of the oxide build-up. The 900 series Eumig's all have a new design soundhead which is readily and totally accesible for cleaning, between reels if necesary.
Both my Elmo GS1200'S are resposible for putting some pretty deep scratches on several of my films. They require constant cleaning and attention to reduce the chances of scratch generation. The Eumig's, by contrast, do not seem to be nearly so fussy, and are therefore much more relaxing to use.

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The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj

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Osi Osgood
Film God

Posts: 10204
From: Mountian Home, ID.
Registered: Jul 2005


 - posted May 15, 2008 06:52 PM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I must agree with Paul on this one, as I have never had a scratch problem with my Eumig 926. It is incredibly gentle with films.

One factor, however, has to be the film stock, I believe, AND how OLD he stock is. I just bought some "film renew" for this very purpose, as I have heard that it is VERY good for lubrication.

I have had absolutely brand new classic era castle film color prints, (one of which I talked about before a Woodpecker cartoon entitled "Termites From mars, a classic!), and the very first time, my Eumig left a nasty scratch all the way through, but it has never scratched any of my Derann prints. Other 30 or more year old prints have also scratched very easily, which is why I bought that film-renew. I won't watch a single older print until I have treated with that stuff!

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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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Tom A. Pennock
Master Film Handler

Posts: 250
From: Battle Creek, MI. USA
Registered: Apr 2004


 - posted May 15, 2008 08:05 PM      Profile for Tom A. Pennock     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I think the Eumig O&M unit that scratches is an 800 series unit. The other unit also is an 800 series as well. I can't think what the number is. No problem at all with that unit. I believe you Paul that you are not having this problem. The collector from France also mentioned a good point which I have heard before. That some of the Eumig projection gates are different aspect ratio wise. Then when you use a print on a different brand unit you might see scratches on the sides of the film frame that were masked/hidden on a Eumig. The scratch problem is one of the reason's I am getting out of the Super Eight format.

Yes, Osi it's a good idea to apply conditioner on to green brand new prints to reduce friction on the new print and to make them flexible. Also it seem's that mylar film stock scratches easier than acetate stock. I have never owned a 900 series Eumig.

--TP

P.S. Osi; Termites From Mars was one of the first cartoon's I saw as a child at school. Woody and Bud & Lou got me into film collecting at age eight in 1963. Not 16mm format though that I wanted. It's taken me 45 year's to be able to afford 16mm format!!! In 1963 it was a 50 foot regular 8mm silent black and white Castle film. I still can't afford the IB Tech Woody cartoon's yet. Too expensive as they are relatively scarce in good condition!!!

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Osi Osgood
Film God

Posts: 10204
From: Mountian Home, ID.
Registered: Jul 2005


 - posted May 15, 2008 09:18 PM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Tom,

I'm not sure if I'll part with it, but I'm seriously considering ebaying my one remaining 35MM cartoon, a 1943 classic era Woody Woodpecker, "The Dizzy Acrobat" and it has very good color. It has some wear, but rare enough. I love those original Universal 1940's logo's, with the shimmering revolving stars and logo!

I bet it would fetch a pretty good price, as there are quite a few of the 1960's and early 70's Woody's that appear on ebay on 35MM, but rarely the classic era 1940's!

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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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Tom A. Pennock
Master Film Handler

Posts: 250
From: Battle Creek, MI. USA
Registered: Apr 2004


 - posted May 16, 2008 11:27 PM      Profile for Tom A. Pennock     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I agree Osi! Your print is indeed rare in any shape. I don't see them showing up either for sale. It would probably go for top dollar. I think about Walter Lantz and his wife Grace Stafford who did the voice of Woody. Both extremely talented people!

Best, Tom

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David Kilderry
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 963
From: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
Registered: Feb 2006


 - posted May 17, 2008 04:15 AM      Profile for David Kilderry   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
As Paul says, air-in-a-can is the answer for those hard to clean areas. We keep it on hand especially for those hair in the gate moments!

David

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