8mm Forum: Normal Wear On A Print?

»	8mm Forum » 8mm Forum » Normal Wear On A Print?

UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!

Author

Topic: Normal Wear On A Print?

Tom A. Pennock
Master Film Handler

Posts: 250
From: Battle Creek, MI. USA
Registered: Apr 2004

posted May 15, 2008 03:17 PM

What would be considered normal wear on a film? Year's ago I was talking to a manager friend at the local multiplex before platter systems. They were using 6,000 foot Goldberg one hour reel's. He said that 35mm prints begin to show wear after about 500 showings. These films are also waxed at the lab with something to help fight off wear. But they still do wear. What is normal and what is not normal wear? I would think surface scratches would be normal where as emulsion scratches would not be normal. They used to four wall Sunn Classic pictures in the middle 1970's there. One of them had a really awful emulsion scratch right down the middle of the picture. What made it even worse was the fact that the deep green scratch moved back and forth across the screen during the entire picture. Awful distracting!

--TP

| IP: Logged

Claus Harding
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1149
From: Washington DC
Registered: Oct 2006

posted May 15, 2008 08:17 PM

I think the only two things that make the variable are: cleaning and a projector in good shape.

What I can add from a professional perspective is that during the summer I did commercial work, I ran 'Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom' in 35mm on a Christie with a platter some 230 times, and while there were the occational short hairlines towards the end of the run around the reel edits, the print itself held up very well. The Christie was a rather noisy and basic machine, but nonetheless ran the film well.

I cleaned religiously between screenings and I got the impression that the print, while having a bit of weave that most likely could have been avoided with real-time printing, was actually of good durable quality and that the simple act of alcohol and chamois through the path every intermission would greatly increase the life of the film (I realize I am talking to the choir here.... [Big Grin]

)

For perspective, one of the projectionists who trained me told of an (ex) employee who ran the first screening of his print of "The Empire Strikes Back" in 70mm, only to find 16 vertical lines running down the entirety of the print at the second screening. Dear god....

Claus.

--------------------
"Why are there shots of deserts in a scene that's supposed to take place in Belgium during the winter?" (Review of 'Battle of the Bulge'.)

| IP: Logged

John Whittle
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 791
From: Northridge, CA USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted May 15, 2008 08:30 PM

Tom,

Normal wear is something that's been argued by collectors for as long as I remember (back to the 60s). In the early days of 16mm all prints were used and often discards from libaries and tv syndicators so back then it was a matter of how many splices, missing footage, short titles, as well as rubs and scratches.

A print with several hundred screenings on it can still look good if it's been rewound properly (tightly, no cinching) and run through clean projectors. Even then you'll see wear from the pressure plate in the gate and the guide rollers. These are undercut so that the sound track and picture should travel without touching any stationary part. (BTW hand rewinding on a table with rewinds and controlling tension is the best way to wind and make sure the film winds evenly on top of each strand and doesn't stack and jump which leads to horizontal scratches).

Of course any dirt in the machine will provide a knife like scratch to either the base or emulsion and often the perp didn't even see the problem as it happens as the film is projected.

I think at one time there was a grading chart a lot of dealers used (as I recall it may have been printed in the Big Reel way back in the 60s) that related short titles, missing leaders, slugs for commercials, etc. A new tv print generally has PCH (Place Commercial Here) banners. A real network delayed broadcast print would have full commercials spliced in and run just as it did on the network. Either of these would be Grade A.

You take off points for splices, broken sprocket holes, repairs, missing footage, fading and so forth.

So I don't think there's an easy answer to what would be considered "normal wear" but today sa we get further and further away from the source and the prints get older, the quality goes down. Now we have VS and brittle film to deal with as well and we've found that many of our "snake oils" actually can start VS happening earlier.

John

| IP: Logged

David Kilderry
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 963
From: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
Registered: Feb 2006

posted May 15, 2008 08:32 PM

Well commercially and 16mm/Super 8 are really different. We ran Raiders in 70mm on spools four sessions a day and only required a 2nd print commencing the 2nd YEAR! It ran for another 6 months on print two. 70mm has an advantage like Super 8 in that the mag tracks actually keep the film surfaces away from each other.

On Pretty Woman, Matrix, Titanic etc on 35mm and platters 6 months at 5 - 6 sessions a day is a very good run. With these prints it was not the picture image that looked worn rather the optical tracks and/or digital tracks gave out. Noise on the optical and failures and subsequent reversions on the Dolby Digital.

16mm can be excellent as the projectors are generally a step up from Super 8 and back in the day many projectionists were trained, but as the years went by hire prints especially got worse and worse.

On Super 8, I have prints that I bought new and have run over 100 times and they have light wear, but alas have faded!

Normal wear certainly depends on the guage and print usage too. I would always ask for some qualifying criteria given that description on a print I was considering buying.

Love to hear what others think. My Elmo ST 1200 is very gentle on film whereas I could not always say the same about previous Sanko and Chinon projectors I have owned.

David

| IP: Logged

Osi Osgood
Film God

Posts: 10204
From: Mountian Home, ID.
Registered: Jul 2005

posted May 15, 2008 08:55 PM

It would seem, in this day and age, if you recieved a print of a film that has just finished it's run, you'd have a pretty good chance of getting a print in decent shape, as even the biggest hits these days have somewhat short runs.

--------------------
"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

| IP: Logged

Gary Crawford
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 979
From: Manassas, VA. USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted May 16, 2008 07:57 AM

Osi has a point, but on the other hand, in the "old"days films at theaters were run by professional projectionists who took, for the most part, good care of films and machines. They knew how, where and when to clean the film path, etc. Today, it's likely that the kid who had been selling buttered popcorn in the lobby a few minutes ago, is up there running the projectors and building the platter. No cleaning...no care...no knowledge.

| IP: Logged

Osi Osgood
Film God

Posts: 10204
From: Mountian Home, ID.
Registered: Jul 2005

posted May 16, 2008 09:00 AM

That's exactly the case in our "Take One" cinema in Mountian Home here ... buttering one minute, starting the film the next.

Though I would LOVE to work there ...

--------------------
"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

| IP: Logged

Jan Bister
Darth 8mm

Posts: 2629
From: Ohio, USA
Registered: Jan 2005

posted May 16, 2008 12:06 PM

So I guess that means they wax the film with popcorn butter nowadays... [Roll Eyes]

--------------------
Call me Phoenix. *dusts off the ashes*

| IP: Logged

Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 525
From: Dallas, TX, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted May 16, 2008 01:40 PM

This depends on your definition of "acceptable wear". I am a terribly picky person when it comes to this. I haven't bought a Super 8mm print in a long time, but at least in the case of 35mm brand new prints out of the cans are unacceptable to me due to the shipping and packing dust that gets onto them. I make all of my theaters run the prints through the FilmGuard "wet gate" type cleaners every show, every screen, every day from the first to the last presentation. They are fired if it is found they are skipping this terribly important step. The result is that 3, 6, 9, 12 months worth of playing 5 or 6 shows a day the print is so flawless that it looks like digital. Many times the prints my theaters have played have been specifically sought out for archival use because of this. Films do not "wear" if they are properly taken care of. (1982 and earlier prints may fade though.)

| IP: Logged

Tom A. Pennock
Master Film Handler

Posts: 250
From: Battle Creek, MI. USA
Registered: Apr 2004

posted May 16, 2008 02:37 PM

Thank's for posting that Brad. It's interesting to read the way you care for these print's and take pride in them. Good showmanship IMHO is what is lacking at the movies today. It's good to read about someone who really care's about good presentation today!

Best, Tom

| IP: Logged

All times are Central

Printer-friendly view of this topic

UBB.classic^TM 6.3.1.2