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Author Topic: Anyone want a film cleaner ?
Roy Neil
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 203
From: Menlo Park, CA
Registered: Sep 2007

- posted October 05, 2008 09:24 PM      Profile for Roy Neil   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I was hoping to get a feel for how many of you would be interested in a Kelmar Style film cleaner designed for Super 8mm and 16mm use.

I use a Kelmar film cleaner on my 35mm projector whenever I run film, and I sorely miss it when I run 16mm and Super8. Im just finishing the construction of a Kelmar Style film cleaner for my own use, and was urged by others to make it available for sale. So I popped up here to see if in fact anybody was interested.

Please post a reply with any comments/thoughts you may have, I would appreciate the feedback.

( and of course Im assuming everyone here knows what a Kelmar cleaner is ... maybe thats a mistake so let me know if I need to post more info )

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Chip Gelmini
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1733
From: Brooksville, FL
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted October 05, 2008 09:32 PM      Profile for Chip Gelmini     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I already have one that is converted and I'd like to have another. In the future I plan to put them on my Towers, much like they go on the penthouse.

So yes, I'd be interested and I know how they work exactly.

~CG~

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Douglas Meltzer
Moderator

Posts: 4554
From: New York, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted October 06, 2008 09:18 AM      Profile for Douglas Meltzer   Email Douglas Meltzer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Roy,

I was also looking to adapt a Kelmar media cleaner so I could use it on both Super 8mm & 16mm projectors. I'm definitely interested in whatever you come up with.
For the curious, Kelmar info can be found here.
I've moved this thread from General Yak, since it does involve 8mm.
Doug

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I think there's room for just one more film.....

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Chip Gelmini
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1733
From: Brooksville, FL
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted October 06, 2008 02:06 PM      Profile for Chip Gelmini     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Adapting the cleaner is actually very simple.

You just reverse the order the parts are installed, but to do this you must add (not included) longer screws to go the extra difference to hold it assembled.

From the above link @ picture, the large black roller upper right the film drives this part. From the factory, it's set at 35mm.

Remove the first two screws for the outside flange.

Remove the collar adapter with an allen wrench.

Remove the inside flange and expose the direct shaft.

Insert the collar all the way in and secure.

Insert the inside flange.

Insert the outside flange.

Align the holes through the flanges.

Add the new longer screws through the two flanges and into the collar.

All the other rollers and cloths remain 35mm format.

You have now converted the Kelmar to 8 / 16.

The Kelmar cleaner is designed to run at play speed. So this device is NOT supposed to clean a reel during a standard rewinding of a reel at high speed. This is very important and do not try to break the speed limit.

Once set between hand crank rewinds, the Kelmar cleaner should take about 15 minutes to clean a full 1200' reel.

And for best results, you should be using sturdy rewinds, such as any of the Neumade hand crank sets.

I do not recommend using the Kelmar cleaner with the Elmo rewinds because the left side does not have a brake tension. Even if you held your hand on the reel, this would still be difficult. Film tension is required to properly keep contact to the cleaning rolls.

Remember I have worked as a theater projectionist, I have experience with the Kelmar cleaner. So listen up to what I write and be careful with your prints. The Kelmar cleaner is a big investment so you should be very sure you want to do this first before you do it at all.

With proper care and handling, the Kelmar unit works very good and I do not clean my prints any other way.

~CG~

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Roy Neil
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 203
From: Menlo Park, CA
Registered: Sep 2007

- posted October 06, 2008 07:56 PM      Profile for Roy Neil   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Sorry for the confusion, Im not converting Kelmar cleaners ( much too costly ) I manufactured my own Kelmar-Style cleaner. It measures 4.5" x 3.5" x 1.25" and will accept the same cleaning media the Kelmar uses - although I hope to have half height rolls made for 16mm and Super8 use.

The Kelmar cleaner is designed for 35mm use, so the cleaning media will advance very very slowly with Super8 - I chose a gear ratio more favorable to 16mm and Super8.

If all goes according to plan the unit should retail for approximately $200 maybe a tad less/more.

Im hoping to establish if there is enough demand to warrant going into production and right now it seems fairly low - so if indeed any of you are interested in this please post now or forever hold your peace [Smile]

( The cleaner is designed for use with 16mm or Super8 so I made the post in the General Yak section - my apologies )

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Bob Pucci
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 520
From: Westerly,RI
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted October 07, 2008 08:42 AM      Profile for Bob Pucci     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Roy if you go into production I would buy one.

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Jose Artiles
Master Film Handler

Posts: 357
From: Spain
Registered: Oct 2005

- posted October 07, 2008 09:01 AM      Profile for Jose Artiles   Email Jose Artiles   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Me too,im very interested! [Smile]

--------------------
As Steven Spielberg says....
Nothing beats old school projection. Digital is just an imitation.

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Larry Arpin
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 953
From: Sunland, CA, USA
Registered: Dec 2006

- posted October 07, 2008 10:14 AM      Profile for Larry Arpin   Author's Homepage   Email Larry Arpin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
How would it mount to an 8mm or 16mm projector? Is this similar to Kodak's PT rollers?

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Douglas Meltzer
Moderator

Posts: 4554
From: New York, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted October 07, 2008 12:14 PM      Profile for Douglas Meltzer   Email Douglas Meltzer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Roy,

If you come up with a system for wet gate projection, I'm in!

Doug

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I think there's room for just one more film.....

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David Michael Leugers
Master Film Handler

Posts: 264
From: Fairfield, OH, USA
Registered: Feb 2004

- posted October 07, 2008 09:36 PM      Profile for David Michael Leugers   Email David Michael Leugers   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If it works, I will buy one!

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Live Free or Die

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Chip Gelmini
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1733
From: Brooksville, FL
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted October 08, 2008 09:16 AM      Profile for Chip Gelmini     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
OK. I'll try one. [Smile]

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Osi Osgood
Film God

Posts: 10204
From: Mountian Home, ID.
Registered: Jul 2005

- posted October 08, 2008 09:57 AM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
OOOH!

After looking at that link, (thanks Doug!) I get where we are going.

So this would be going on the front or back of our projector and would clean the film as we run it?

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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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Chip Gelmini
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1733
From: Brooksville, FL
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted October 08, 2008 11:16 AM      Profile for Chip Gelmini     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
You are correct Osi. But as Roy says, he is not working on the actual Kelmar unit as I thought. My apologies to everyone. I am very interested in Roy's project.

Chip G

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Hugh McCullough
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 156
From: Old Coulsdon. Surrey. UK
Registered: Oct 2006

- posted October 08, 2008 04:25 PM      Profile for Hugh McCullough   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Sounds just the thing that I have been looking for. Count me in.

--------------------
EIKI Ex 6100 xenon machine.

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Peter Willems
Junior
Posts: 4
From: Germany
Registered: Jan 2009

- posted January 16, 2009 04:43 PM      Profile for Peter Willems   Email Peter Willems   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Roy,

I would buy one and I am pretty sure that there are other fellows in the German collector scene who also would grasp one. I know what a Kelmar cleaner is but I still don't know if there is an automatic feeding mechanism for the cleaning wipe. Is there a motor inside or a gear connected to one of the rollers? Will you be using the original Kelmar cleaning tape?

I could use some material on the original Kelmar if you had...

Best,

Peter

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Hugh McCullough
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 156
From: Old Coulsdon. Surrey. UK
Registered: Oct 2006

- posted January 16, 2009 05:12 PM      Profile for Hugh McCullough   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Peter.

The film drives the large black roller. This in turn is connected by an internal chain to gears on the rollers that hold the cleaning media.
The cleaning media rollers revolve at a very slow speed, and advance the media, thus allowing a clean piece to be always in contact with the film.

-

Hugh.

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EIKI Ex 6100 xenon machine.

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 525
From: Dallas, TX, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted January 24, 2009 03:53 AM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Download this.

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Hans van der Sloot
Master Film Handler

Posts: 425
From: the Netherlands
Registered: Nov 2005

- posted January 25, 2009 07:38 AM      Profile for Hans van der Sloot   Author's Homepage   Email Hans van der Sloot   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Roy,

I would be very interested in such a film cleaner too.

Hans

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Jim Schrader
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1628
From: Savage, MN, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted January 25, 2009 08:20 AM      Profile for Jim Schrader   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
hello Roy if you have any left I would be interested thanks

--------------------
jim schrader
"Let's see “do I have that title already?"

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Simon McConway
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1085
From: Doncaster, UK
Registered: Jun 2004

- posted January 25, 2009 08:29 AM      Profile for Simon McConway     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I would like one.

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Michael O'Regan
Film God

Posts: 3085
From: Essex, UK
Registered: Oct 2007

- posted January 25, 2009 01:36 PM      Profile for Michael O'Regan   Email Michael O'Regan   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I would like one but I'm wondering whether or not Roy is still actually working on this as its been a while since we've heard from him either here or on the 16mm forum.

-Mike

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Stewart McSporran
Master Film Handler

Posts: 272
From: Glasgow, Scotland
Registered: Nov 2003

- posted January 26, 2009 04:02 PM      Profile for Stewart McSporran   Email Stewart McSporran   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have a Kelmar that I adapted for 16mm use - Chip, I turned a 16mm guide from aluminium to replace the 35mm plastic one, I didn't feel safe using the existing one.

The problem I have is that I can't figure out how to mount it with my Elmo 16CL so that I can use it at projection time. So if Roy's design solves this then I'm up for one.

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Roy Neil
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 203
From: Menlo Park, CA
Registered: Sep 2007

- posted January 29, 2009 12:07 PM      Profile for Roy Neil   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yes [Smile]

I am still working on this - in fact I finished and am preparing to offer the units for sale shortly.

I can share some photos of the first prototype being run on my 16mm Eiki. The photos are not the best quality but show you how the unit looks.

I came up with a Handle Clamp mount to try and satisfy the largest number of projectors. I will also offer a means to mount the cleaner independently of the projector although I have not constructed that as of yet.

The Handle Clamp used in the 16mm photos follows the same principle however it was fashioned for temporary testing purposes. The 16mm Handle Clamp will look much like the Super8 pictured below.

First Prototype 1

First Prototype 2

First Test Film

Three Hours Later 1

Three Hours Later 2

Super 8 Mount

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Douglas Meltzer
Moderator

Posts: 4554
From: New York, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted January 29, 2009 01:09 PM      Profile for Douglas Meltzer   Email Douglas Meltzer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Roy,

Excellent work!

Doug

--------------------
I think there's room for just one more film.....

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Roy Neil
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 203
From: Menlo Park, CA
Registered: Sep 2007

- posted February 01, 2009 06:26 PM      Profile for Roy Neil   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks Doug !

Since I myself am a film enthusiast ( and somewhat quixotic ) I chose to begin this endeavor knowing full well that I may be the only soul interested in this contraption. It is extremely gratifying to see others appreciate my efforts, and that the fruits of my labor may be enjoyed by more than myself.

I have spent more hours than I wish to admit striving to come up with a design which is highly reliable, yet inexpensive to manufacture.

I am currently determining the final cost-of-goods including labor. Many of the parts I will be machining myself, although some of the high tolerance work will be outsourced. It has been my goal to bring this to market with a very low price point ( approx $200 )

Brand new Kelmar units sell in excess of $700 and after the last 3 months of work designing and testing the prototype for production, its easy to see why. Gearboxes must be engineered to strict tolerances or the gears wont mesh properly. In this instance I have to maintain gear spacing to a tolerance of +/- 0.002"

Im finalizing the details for my first production run. I intend to contact the individuals who have expressed an interest here as soon as I am ready to begin accepting orders for delivery.

If you feel you will wish to purchase a cleaner but have not posted, I encourage you to post here or otherwise contact me with your interest. Planning a production run is quite tedious, and in order to keep costs low I am proceeding very judiciously. I am producing an initial run of 10 cleaners, with another 10 to follow. The responses here and on the 16mm forum are what I am utilizing to determine the initial demand. This week I begin the first production run and I can ( up until mid week ) expand the production run but only if there is a demand.

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