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Topic: Super 8 and Optical Sound?
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Osi Osgood
Film God
Posts: 10204
From: Mountian Home, ID.
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted October 24, 2009 10:32 AM
Ahhh Micheal ...
You have brought up one of my favorite Super 8 subjects. I never tire of the subject.
I would have to say that magnetic sound is definitely better; mostly because you can make a pretty decent stereo soundtrack with magnetic sound. Many Super 8 opticals do have a very good mono soundtrack, but they can vary widely.
One of the mystifying aspects about optical super 8 is that the soundtrack was not printed at the same time. John Whittle could give a very detailed explanation as to how they did it, (or could someone make a link to that particular post on this thread?). So you could have a very good color print of an optical feature, but you might have a faded optical soundtrack on the same piece of film and while you'll still have sound, it will be much lower than it was when first manufactured.
Though you rarely tend to see a lot of optical features offered today, (one or two here and there on ebay and sadly, usually the same ones opver and over), they were once at least seen often enough on sellers lists. back in the late 1980's when I first collected, I remember Dave Thomas Films having a whole list of about 30 different titles, and he had multiple copies of each one.
If your real lucky, you can even find them still unused on a core. About two years ago I ran into three cored features, never played, which gave me hope that the color would be perfect and they were ... magnificent! They were ...
Force 10 from navarone
Something Short of Paradise
(A boxing Kangaroo film, forget the title)
The funny thing is they were never meant to get into collectors hands, though, ironically, Super 8 projectors were being made with optical sound playback, so people in the industry must have gotten wind of the features out there.
These films would be slightly edited for content, as they were airline features and you'd never know if a child would be watching, but if there weas no objectionable material, there would be little or no editing.
The two great things about the opticals were, of course ...
The variety ...
I am still amazed as to what I find as features on Super 8 optical sound, from "Point Blank" (1967, the beginning year, I believe, of the optical sound feature for the airlines), to "The Hunt For Red October", (1990) which was issued after american and British airlines stopped using Super 8 optical, but Asia and other countries were still making optical prints.
That and the incredible sharpness of the optical feature. Rarely would you have a marginal fdocus on these, (as on Tender Mercies, 1983), most of the time, the focus rivals anything put out by Derann or CHC. I'm still baffled as to how they could get a better than 16MM sharpness to a print like "Broadway Danny Rose" (Woody Allen) on such a small guage. Even if only to test and see how sharp Super 8 could be, find one of those prints when you can, and you will truly be shocked at how sharp it is.
It's the print I use to baffle the viewer!
The only true downside that I have seen, is that, since these prints were only printred for a short viewing run, I'm sure that they just used whatever was available as print stock. No doubt, the cheapest available ...
... so, many a prints were manufactured on the dreadful fadsing eastman stock. Gorky Park, a 1983 optical release, already looks all pinked out, even though it has been well stored! (drat!)
Fortunately for the later releases, they were put on either Kodak SP or L.P.P. ansd so these prints that survived the chopping block, (in reality!), still look pristine. I treasure my prints of "Rocky 3" and "Pale Rider".
I could go on and on about the opticals but I'd best go to work, trying to find work!
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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "
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Osi Osgood
Film God
Posts: 10204
From: Mountian Home, ID.
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted October 25, 2009 08:20 AM
MOST Definitely!
The only equal could be if Derann put out the same feature, but I can't think of any cases of that.
An example off the top of my head is "Dillinger" (1974, Warren Oates, Ben Johnson).
I remember having the 400ft release, magnetic sound digest, and the image quality was that standard Ken Films digest, very grainy and not the best focus in the world.
The optical feature, very sharp!
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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "
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John Whittle
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 791
From: Northridge, CA USA
Registered: Jun 2003
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posted October 25, 2009 11:54 AM
A couple of points on optical sound on color stocks.
1. All prints 35/16/Super8 are printed from a black and white sound track negative. I believe that all the Super8 prints were reduction printed from a specially recorded 16mm optical sound track negative.
2. All color positive prints were made with a #12 (yellow) filter to restrict exposure of the track to the top two layers of the print stock to maximize the sharpness of the track and thus the high frequency response.
3. For 35mm and 16mm prints, this track was applicated in processing with a developer such that the finished print had a dye plus silver image. A lack of silver (such as Technicolor blue or Cinecolor) does not block infrared which is what phototube and solar cells are most sensitive to. Thus a dye track print has much lower output. There are special sensors that have better response in the visible spectrum and I would think that that type would have been used in Super8 projectors.
When the film starts to fade, in a dye track print, the track starts to fade. Since the major component of the track is the cyan + magneta dyes, any picture fading results in the track fading and thus a slowly disappear sound track.
Now as I recall, the Agfa stock was very popular in the late 1970s because the cyan dye had been blocking in the infrared and thus produced better sound output on Super8 without application, the dye has also proved to be more stable.
As for frequency response, this is a simple mathmatical calculation. The highest frequency will be determined by the slit width and the film speed and film resolution. Thus if you can get 6,000 hz on a 16mm print at 36 fpm, at about half that for 8mm (and 11% more for Super8) you'd get 3,000 hz.
John
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Osi Osgood
Film God
Posts: 10204
From: Mountian Home, ID.
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted October 25, 2009 12:37 PM
John ...
The incredible wealth of information that is Mr. Whittle is always a welcome assett. Everytime you add to this conversation about optical sound Super 8, I'm learning just a little more.
Considering just how many variables there are to producing an optical soundtrack, (which at least appears to be much more complicated than your standard magnetic soundtrack which, quite frankly, anyone with a recordable sound Super 8 projector is capable of), it makes it just that much more remarkable that many of these optical sound Super 8's sound so good, as that optical soundtrack is so small.
Many thanx John! Great to hear from ya!
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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "
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Osi Osgood
Film God
Posts: 10204
From: Mountian Home, ID.
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted October 25, 2009 04:39 PM
Micheal ...
I've wondered about that, (why they didn't use mag track super 8), as the fidelity of sound would have been superior.
The only answer that I can come up with, is that mag track takes up more room.
For instance, in my collection, I can only go up as high as 600ft reels. A reel of mag soundtrack super 8 contains, at best 31 minutes of footage. Because the soundtrack is "photocopied" directly onto the film, I can fit up to 35 minutes per reel, perhaps more.
To answer one of the other questions, these films were placed in one large size cartridge. Since there were not multiple cartridges, the films would happen to run only 110.00 minutes and no more. Films running longer than that would be edited, perhaps heavily. (note: I had heard that Ben Hur and Dr. Zhivago was released as an optical feature, but in that case, it was placed in two cartridges.)
There was an effort to make standard 8mm optical films. I know of at least one projector that was manufactured, (I believe, in japan), and at least on standard 8mm feature, "Futureworld" and perhaps more. It shows how late in the standard 8mm game that they were thinking of more uses for it. I would suppose that the soundtrack was on the outer edge of the sprocket.
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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "
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Joerg Polzfusz
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 815
From: Berlin, Germany, Europe, Earth, Solar System
Registered: Apr 2006
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posted October 27, 2009 10:58 AM
Hi,
Ullstein (Germany, http://www.ullstein.de) once had an "AV"-branch that produced Super8-films with optical soundtracks. Those films could be rented at Ullstein and Quelle. Hence they avoided magnetical soundtracks that could be accidentally erased.
Most/All of the films have also been sold by Quelle (once "the" mail-order-company in Germany, now filed insolvency).
Jörg
P.S.: Some of those "Ullstein AV"-films are fairy tales (based on stories by the Grimm-brothers, ...). It looks like they were not only printed, by also shot/edited/... by "Ullstein AV"-films. And AFAIK those films were only distributed on super8... . However other "Ullstein AV"-films have been "ordinary" prints (with optical soundtrack) of movies (e.g. "Geliebter Schuft" with Jean-Paul Belmondo) or of TV-series (e.g. "Mit Schirm, Charme und Melone" = "the avengers")
P.P.S.: Quelle also sold some more films with optical soundtrack...
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Osi Osgood
Film God
Posts: 10204
From: Mountian Home, ID.
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted October 27, 2009 01:23 PM
Gian ...
Somewhere on this Forum, months ago, I put a list up of about 150 or so known titles that are optical sound Super 8 features.
Doug, could you make a link to this earlier post? Also, there were two lists I put up, one was the fifty or so titles that I personally own, the other one was the long list of known titles, (at least, those known to me.).
I must say, most of what I have learned about optical sound super 8, the technical side, is from this very forum and the knowledgable folks therein!
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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "
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