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Topic: Advice on a standard 8mm sound projector
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Paul Adsett
Film God
Posts: 5003
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003
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posted January 10, 2010 10:06 AM
Hi Frank,
I agree with all you say about the Eumig P8. My first 8mm projector was a P8, which I purchased in the mid 1950's, and believe me the P8 was a big leap forward in projector technology at that time. When everybody else was using massive 500 watt mains voltage bulbs, along comes the little P8 and shows it can push out more light with much less heat using a little 12 volt 100 watt bulb! And the design of the little P8 is so beautiful and compact, again unique for the time with top positioning of the spools. I soon added the Eumig Phonomatic attachment for synchronizing with a reel-to-reel tape recorder and was producing sound films well before the introduction of 8mm stripe.
I think the P8 was the projector that really put Eumig on the map, worldwide, and as you say it heralded all the brilliant Eumig innovations which were to follow. I will never forget the joy of my little P8, and I still think Eumig were the best ever 8mm projector designers anywhere in the World.
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The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj
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frank arnstein
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 534
From: Gold Coast. Australia
Registered: Jan 2005
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posted January 13, 2010 05:23 AM
Hi Martin
I have edited my incorrect statements with regard to the number of pins in the claws of Super 8 & Dual 8 Eumigs.
Martin is very correct & I was mostly wrong.
*****Regular 8 ONLY machines have TWO claws, spaced by the frame pitch.
(You are correct on this Martin).
******Dual gauge machines have ONE claw which can engage with either sprocket hole standard,
(You are correct again on this Martin).
******the entry point and different strokes being controlled by the specific aperture plate fitted.
(The aperture plate has no bearing on the movement of the claw or entry point into the film. It is determined by the cam shaped groove which the claw peg is sitting in & pressed against.
The slot in the aperature plate must never touch the claw or it would break off a pin in seconds. The purpose of the slot is to make sure the claw doesn't touch the aperature plate during movement of the claw.)
*******If a claw breaks on a Regular 8 machine it will continue to work with only one, BUT a broken claw on a Super 8 machine would prevent the transport working.
(Again, you are correct on this Martin).
******Therefore, NEVER attempt to fit a second claw to a DUAL machine, unless you also throw away the Super 8 sprockets and aperture plate, making it a Regular 8 ONLY machine.
(You are correct on this once more Martin).
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
[ June 23, 2010, 04:33 AM: Message edited by: frank arnstein ]
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At Projector Heaven the Focus is always on Detail.
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[o:/o]<|=- dogtor@projectorheaven.com.au
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Martin Jones
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1269
From: Thetford , Norfolk,England
Registered: May 2008
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posted January 13, 2010 07:37 AM
Frank, you are quite right in two respects...
1. The S810 is a Super 8 machine,not a Standard 8 one. That error arose from my mis-reading of the Instruction book.
2. A two pin machine has the pins spaced so that they CAN enter two sprocket holes of either gauge, and therefore the lower pin will effect pulldown (actually "pushdown" on these machines). The upper pin does nothing, unless it is spaced exactly by the frame pitch (it is apparently Super 8 pitch), in which case it shares the load in Super 8 only. Otherwise, it is only there as a "spare".The aperture plate, as you say, does not control entry or "stroke", but only frame size, and the claw assembly is moved by the Framing knob to control the "exit" point relative to the two different frame line standards.
On both those points I hold up my hands and admit ....
1. My mis-reading mistake, and
2. My mis-interpretation of the significance of the difference in aperture plates.
However, the fact does remain that the S810 (super 8) was fitted with TWO pins, and the S810D and S810D Lux with only one, as standard. I queried this with Josef Grassman when I discovered that the S810D ( like my S824) had only one, although the shuttle had holes for two.
Here is question I sent to him on the 20th October last...
<<I have some confusion regarding the claws on 800 series Eumigs, specifically 810 and 824.
In Forum discussions on this subject reference is often made to "the claw" or "the claws". The question is... should these machines have ONE or TWO claws?
I have an 824 which runs beautifully and has only ONE claw. I also have an 810 which I have not run yet, which also has only ONE claw. Both machines have a second hole in the claw carrier. Should there be a second claw? If so, how is it fixed in the carrier?
Thank you for any help you can give.>>
And the answer...
<< 802, 807 810 are super 8 projectors and have two pins on their claw.
The "D"-projectors e.g. 810D means they play both Dual= standard 8 and super 8, by exchange of filmplates with different aperture size. Due to the fact that pitch between perforation holes on Standard 8 and Super 8 is different, they use one pin, only.
824 is a dual projector but without a "D". It has one pin, only.
There exist some Eumig projectors with special shaped two pin claw. Both pins have a distance of about 2 inches. So they fit perfectly in Standard 8 and Super 8 perforation holes.
I donīt know by heart the Eumig types, as I repair all brands of projectors. Here they use two pins for Standard 8 and Super 8, which is an advantage.
Best Regards
Josef>>
So, if your S810D has TWO claws(pins), either someone has fitted another one believing it to be needed (it is NOT essential) or it has been repaired using a claw shuttle from an S810. On an S810D the upper of the two claws will never actually touch the film when used on Standard 8 unless the bottom one breaks
My remarks regarding broken Claws (pins) and their effect on the film transport remain accurate.
I am glad to enter discussions like this, as they bring to light errors due to mis-conceptions. In this particular case, it is doubly useful as it drove me to examine my aperture plates and as a result I discovered that the little side pressure plate from the Standard 8 aperture plate of the S810D I am working on is missing...the spring is still there.
Does anyone have one, or a complete Standard 8 aperture plate from an 800 series machine going spare I could buy?
Martin
[ January 13, 2010, 01:15 PM: Message edited by: Martin Jones ]
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Retired TV Service Engineer
Ongoing interest in Telecine....
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Martin Jones
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1269
From: Thetford , Norfolk,England
Registered: May 2008
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posted January 14, 2010 07:38 AM
Arising from the discussion, it is interesting to note that the claw in these machines is a "pin" quite simply because its position in the horizontal plane (relative to the film edge) is, of necessity, fixed, and has to engage both types of sprocket holes.The actual width of horizontal overlap of the two types is only 0.74 mm (0.029 inch), so the pin must be very narrow to avoid touching the edge of the holes. A slightly bent "pin" (easily effected if you neglect to withdraw the claws before changing apertures) will possibly damage the film, or cause it to break off completely.
The distance apart at which two claws would exactly fit bot Standard 8 and Super 8 perforations is actually 38.1 mm (1.5 inches), representing 9 Super 8 or 10 Standard 8 frames.
Martin.
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Retired TV Service Engineer
Ongoing interest in Telecine....
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David Pannell
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1072
From: Horsham, West Sussex, UK
Registered: Nov 2004
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posted January 15, 2010 06:40 AM
Martin's description of the claw/pin arrangement in dual gauge machines is my main reason for prefering dedicated machines.
Whilst I'm sure that the quality of projectors such as the Eumig range leaves little to be desired in this department, I'm just not comfortable with it - - just in case!!!
As a professional engineer, I admit that this psychological approach may be, - and probably is, unfounded; but it's just that gut feeling or instinct that sways my preference for dedicated equipment, not only regarding the film hobby, but pretty much everything technical.
Usually, if a piece of kit has to perform several jobs, the laws of reliability engineering come into play to a greater extent, and the Gaussian and Poisson distribution theories indicate that "if something can go wrong, it will".
For this reason, I prefer Hi-Fi separates, we have separate washer & dryer etc. etc. too. No problems!
"Therefore, Bill, wait till you can afford the Eumig Mk S" - and I'll wait for some Forum friends to shoot me down in flames. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Dave.
Valves and celluloid - a great combination!
Early technology rules OK!
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