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Author Topic: Synchronising Sound when filming in Super 8
Paul Brandes
Film Handler

Posts: 61
From: Australia
Registered: May 2010


 - posted July 22, 2010 03:28 AM      Profile for Paul Brandes   Email Paul Brandes   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I am trying to find out if Sound can be synchronised when filming in Super 8 and what equipment is currently used. I am aware that no striped sound cartridges are available but assumed that some kind of double system exists to make sound recording on film possible.I remember seeing a fuul-coat recorder in the eighties but would think that this has been superceded by newer technology. I would be grateful for any information.

Regards

paul

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Alexander Lechner
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 118
From: Leoben, Austria
Registered: Apr 2009


 - posted July 22, 2010 05:35 AM      Profile for Alexander Lechner   Email Alexander Lechner   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have been looking into this subject a bit as I'm not doing any telecine and still want to have original sound with my films.
There are a few possibilities for syncro-sound that you can find on the net.
For me the technically finest alternative is to have a camera that produces sound pulses with each frame which are recorded on your sound recorder on the second track (the first track holds the original sound). After you got a magnetic track on your film you can control the speed of your projector with the pulses and the playback of the sound can be recorded sychronised to the film. Sounds great and easy, but: you will need a clapperboard with each scene you start (might be annoying but is not so difficult); the according equipment is hard to find and expensive (projector!). I also don't know what sound recording devices there are that can be stopped at a certain instant (the sound of the clapperboard) and then be started by the projector without any delay. Overall I'm not an electronics guy enough to go through with this.
My try now is to pre-stripe film in the dark room and refill sound cartridges. In the next few months I will have a try on this and, if you are still interested, report.
And don't forget: there is a distance between sound and picture of 18 frames; this might cause problems when cutting.

--------------------
Alex

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Joerg Polzfusz
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 815
From: Berlin, Germany, Europe, Earth, Solar System
Registered: Apr 2006


 - posted July 22, 2010 08:15 AM      Profile for Joerg Polzfusz   Author's Homepage   Email Joerg Polzfusz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi,

there are several ways:
a) Using crystal sync'ed devices for both film and audio.
b) Working with puls-signals (you can simply replace the old tape-recorders with all current digital audio-recorders that can record at least 2 separate tracks (stereo))
c) Using a slate at the beginning and end of each scene and then use any video-editor to adjust the audio to the images. (When you'll want to project your films, you'll have to use method a or b to sync the audio to the projector. When using post-striped film, it'll do to record the sound from the PC with the sync'ed projector once.)

Jörg

Links:
http://www.super8sync.com/super8sync/univerals_synchronizers_P1008-M.html
http://wittner-cinetec.com/katalog/06_tonte/a_zweiba.php
http://www.ffr-film.de/index.php?page=poetter&language=de
http://www.gebuhr.com/
http://www.poetter-mechatronik.de/News/news.html
http://www.dtvgroup.com/Super8Sound/
http://www.film.project-consultant.net/html/sound_and_sync_.html
http://www.webtfg.com/faq.htm
http://www.megativ.de/film/synchron.htm
http://www.megativ.de/film/impulse.htm
http://www.megativ.de/film/impulse2.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_JOKl7tJ7c&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Npkh8agoodg

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Paul Brandes
Film Handler

Posts: 61
From: Australia
Registered: May 2010


 - posted July 22, 2010 11:44 PM      Profile for Paul Brandes   Email Paul Brandes   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi

Many thanks Alexander and Joerg,

I had the experience many years ago of helping a guy I knew make sound super 8 using fullcoat and the sync pulse. I used to have a circuit based on a 555 (NE555) timer that connects to the camera's flash socket, and saw this used on a regular Sankyo super 8 camera to sync sound with picture. I also remember that UHER was the best recorder available at the time. I will look at the sites with the links Joerg sent and explore the subject further.

Regards

Paul

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Maurizio Di Cintio
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 976
From: Ortona, Italy
Registered: Jan 2004


 - posted July 24, 2010 12:41 AM      Profile for Maurizio Di Cintio   Email Maurizio Di Cintio   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Alexander, what you want to do is very interesting (and a bit challenging). Have you considered the fact that you'll be able to put a shorter amount of film in the cartridges, after striping it?

--------------------
Maurizio

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Alexander Lechner
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 118
From: Leoben, Austria
Registered: Apr 2009


 - posted July 24, 2010 02:27 AM      Profile for Alexander Lechner   Email Alexander Lechner   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hello Maurizio, if I can get 10 m in the cartridge I'm happy.
I am not very far with my project yet. Until now I only managed to open a sound cartridge without destroying it; I refilled it with developed film and let it run though my camera without problems. But I haven't done anything like striping the film or filling the cartridge blindfold yet - and this will be the hard thing. But I still believe that with a bit of practice it will be possible.

--------------------
Alex

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Joerg Polzfusz
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 815
From: Berlin, Germany, Europe, Earth, Solar System
Registered: Apr 2006


 - posted July 26, 2010 02:57 AM      Profile for Joerg Polzfusz   Author's Homepage   Email Joerg Polzfusz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi,

unless you'll get the unprocessed film striped by fipra.de (AFAIK the only company offering this service) you'll run into several problems:
  • Striping has to be done in complete darkness
  • Unprocessed films are more difficult to stripe than processed ones (anti-static coating, ... )
  • There's a chance that the chemicals used for processing will dissolve the stripes' glue. (Seem to depend on the glue and on the chemicals.)
Jörg
P.S.: What I still don't get: Kodak and Fuji stopped offering pre-striped film with the argument that some environmental-protection-laws prevent them from pre-striping film. However both companies still offer APS-film = film that is pre-striped!?

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Alexander Lechner
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 118
From: Leoben, Austria
Registered: Apr 2009


 - posted July 26, 2010 05:21 AM      Profile for Alexander Lechner   Email Alexander Lechner   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hello Jörg!
I asked fipra about that and they confirmed that they can do it - but the minimum amount would be 3000 m. A bit steep for me; I'd go for it if there was a considerable amount of other people being interested.
Your other points I thought about, but without trying it I'll never know as there doesn't seem to be much information around. Maybe my verdict will be: doesn't work at all; well, this could be useful information for people interested as well.

--------------------
Alex

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