|
Author
|
Topic: Is it possible to slit cassette tape to make a super 8 sound film?
|
|
|
Bill Brandenstein
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1632
From: California
Registered: Aug 2007
|
posted August 21, 2011 10:23 PM
In theory, if you could find really, really thin standard-type cassette tape (not chrome or metal, and thin at least a C-90, but thinner would be better), and you had an appropriate means to slice it up to the correct tiny width, and then had a machine to glue it onto your film, and the polyester cassette tape base could adhere to the film you were gluing it to, then I suppose this possibly could work.
But if it does actually work, wouldn't someone have tried this already?
My post is pure speculation, but since nobody else has replied yet, I jumped in. Hopefully you'll get a more informed answer shortly.
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Maurizio Di Cintio
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 977
From: Ortona, Italy
Registered: Jan 2004
|
posted August 22, 2011 05:22 PM
Gentlemen, it simply is not possible: orginally, pre-stripe film was paste striped by Kodak or Agfa, in quite an excellent way in terms of track width/thickness consistency.
When people (still today) home stripe thier films, they use a special laminated stripe (usually manufactured by Agfa - F5) with an acetate base, not polyester like today's standard audio/video tapes. This makes it possible for the 'glue' (indeed a solvent) to melt the stripe base and have it adhere to the film base (provided it's triacetate). So as long as you can find some audio tape with an acetate base, your idea is not going to be successful. And then you'd have to concoct a way to slit the tape to the width required (0.8 mm). Finally you'd have to stripe raw film stock with the utmost precision inorder to avoid drifting treble sound reproduction. Which probably is possible if you use night-vision goggles, but... How much would that cost? Then it's true, some guy in Spain is achieving good results and I hope he sells some of it. But I, for me, would never embark in such a task.
--------------------
Maurizio
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bill Brandenstein
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1632
From: California
Registered: Aug 2007
|
posted August 22, 2011 10:33 PM
Thank you, Maurizio, for confirming my suspicions. That manufactured stripe must have been really, really delicate, because thin acetate isn't very strong.
I believe that no cassette tapes were ever manufactured with acetate backing -- too thin, too breakable.
You'd have to find some 1960s-era open reel tape with 1-mil thickness and then, if the slitting and application were successful, deal with the risk of lots of oxide shedding due to the age of the tape. (not that we're unaccustomed to that with Super 8!)
But that's good to know -- getting the stripe to adhere is the same chemical process that makes a cement splice work.
There is, of course, a different procedure for polyester-base film.
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Martin Baumgarten
Junior
Posts: 7
From: Plattsburgh, New York USA
Registered: Jul 2011
|
posted August 24, 2011 02:34 PM
Ah the Super 8mm Sound Film topic! Always an interesting discussion whenever this comes up anywhere. I only just noticed this topic today, and yes I don't mind jumping into the discussion. There's only so much time to look around the various newsgroups when I can.
Anyhow, here's some FACTS:
(1). KODAK's Super 8mm Sound film was a paste application which was an involved process, producing two sound tracks....the main track and the balance track. The balance track actually could record pretty good sound, so many projector manufacturers ended up making 2-track and even Stereo sound projectors. Sadly, KODAK discontinued making ALL sound film with the last batch of EKTACHROME 160A having 1998 expiration dates and the last batch of KODACHROME 40A having 1999 expiration dates. Whatever their reasons, easy access to the manufacture of Super 8mm Magnetic Sound filmstock is over. Anything done now will be small scale and costly.
(2). Angel Caro in Spain has been able to successfully laminate stripe Super 8mm filmstock and load it into the FUJI Single-8 Sound Cartridge.....aka "CaroSound". While not specifically stated on his Laboratory Website, it has been stated that he will entertain small orders for such film, so contact him directly. Inicio - Laboratorio de cine para 8mm, Super 8, Single-8, DS-8 y 16mm at http://www.reveladoreversible.webs.com/
and Email: reveladoreversible@yahoo.es
(3). KODAK's Ektasound Cartridge 50ft (15m) design is the superior one out of all the versions that were produced out there by Konica, Agfa etc. The 200 foot cartridges were clever but a nightmare and could jam up easily if you weren't careful. The co-axil design was okay, but the cheap flimsy plastic Double Sprocket, torturous film path, and the simple yet complex 'motor' which was a spring interworked between both film reels inside to help the film wind forward or in reverse......makes these 200 footers nearly impossible to reload. I say nearly....it can be done....but it's so frustrating and complex and time consuming, it's not worth it. The only viable easily reloadable Sound cartridge out of the two, is the 50ft version. [for that matter, the FUJI Single-8 is even easier but that's another side topic].
(4). After KODAK ceased making Sound films, only FUJI remained, but briefly, with their filmstock floating about in shops for 6 to 10 months after KODAK's. I had reloaded FUJI Single-8 Sound stock into the KODAK Sound cartridges for those customers that still wanted to shoot sound film with their Super 8 cameras. There were even some that wanted it the other way around, to shoot KODAK Super 8 stocks in their Single-8 cameras, both sound or silent. It works fine either way, but the acetate KODAK film is thicker so only about 40 ft fit into the Single-8 cartridge.
(5). Paste Sound Stripe was available years ago by many companies, even Eastman KODAK via their Rochester, NY plant.....which they called SonoTrack Coating. Home paste stripers were available, but results varied all over the place. A major problem with paste striping is that it leaves a rounded ridge on the film, which flattens down after initial projection wear, so it's important to wear it down, prior to doing any sound recording, othewise the audio signal will be somewhat lower. I've tried to chase down professional grade paste stripers, but three machines that I knew about in the USA went to scrap before I could get them. One company scraped it without even wanting to sell it (sorry no names here!). A unit in England which is large and heavy was available, but the sellers wanted to keep in in the UK, and that's understandable. Besides to ship something like that over was similar to shipping a small car over.
(6). Cresta Electronics in England (long gone now) used to offer an excellent sound striping service, and in the end, were forced to use old acetate based magnetic recording tape, which they slit down to the correct width. In fact, they stopped offering a balance stripe to save what material they had so that the main track could be offered. And that is what over 75% of Super 8 filmers used anyhow.
(6). I have experimented with making my own sound film in Super 8mm, playing with various stocks, especially the FOMAPAN R-100 filmstock. While a wonderful film, the base is very thick and can have transport issues in some cameras. The overall cost to get this made, and mind you, this is Black & White Reversal, with the cost of the rawstock, the shipping back and forth from Europe to the USA, the labor involved, packaging etc....it seemed like the price couldn't be brought in much less than around $70 per cartridge. Now with the lower Dollar value, the high cost for sound striping by FIPRA, high shipping costs......it's a dead in the water project going that route. ----
My experiments via laminate striping here in the lab are viable, but would only be somewhat practical in adding only the Main Track, NOT the Balance Track to the film. It runs fine and anyone wanting to add a Balance Stripe to the processed film, could do so later on. Even so, the raw materials for Sound Stripe are in Germany, and again, the costs to get this here, factoring the waste amounts in startup, bulk raw film stock etc, would still be expensive per cartridge. Since the majority of newbie Super 8mm filmmakers are just going to a Video Format anyway for editing and then presentation, the need for sound film is minimal. Audio can be much more easily recorded on location and in higher quality sound (although, I will say, I have always been pleased by the quality of my own soundtracks at 18fps on the film itself), and then added in post production via NLE software.
I haven't given up, but the entire project is parked to the side until I get more time and money to invest into it. Since I will be shooting Super 8mm long into the future, even if I only have long outdated frozen film of my own to use......I will still want some sound film. An initial limited production run, doing everything here, would only produce some 20 to 40 cartridges, costing the the range of $40 to $60 each. Final cost would depend on what everything involved costs divided by number of film cartridges produced. The labor intensiveness of this is huge and technical since everything is done slow via custom hand loading, sealing, packaging, labeling, film measuring, cutting, stamping, sound striping etc.
So, please understand....this is why I often say, USE the existing sound film that might still be out there, still a lot cheaper. There must still be a small mountain of unused cold stored SOUND film out there in private hands. The EKTACHROME films are used at a slower rate since the processing costs for EM-26 type films can be high, depending which lab you use (I suppose that goes for KODACHROME K-14 film as well....but then....most that do this, only process as B&W Negative)
AND....my final two cents input here...KODACHROME films, if still good to use, are still good to use, and have processed in Black & White; Negative (high or normal contrast), Reversal, or in a rich brown Sepia tone. SO anyone having any SOUND Kodachrome film, it's still viable to shoot and use it. PPS does it for $28 each 50ft cartridge or $25 per 4 cartridges, not totally over the moon.
I do hope some other lab or labs gets involved in offering reversal processing in B&W for it. Dwayne's didn't seem interested when I spoke with the owner prior to K-14 ceasing. That machine could be used to do all kinds of stuff: old Kodachrome-II as B&W Neg, old Kodachrome 25/40A as B&W Neg, usable KODACHROME 25/40A as B&W Reversal, and also in Sepia tone. I'm not sure about all the production figures, but hopefully they did consider it and aren't offering it since incoming volumes would be too low.
Sorry to be so long winded here, but it's easier to just bring up all the information at once than to trickle it in as tiny answers here and there, taking a week or more before all can be said.
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic
