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Author Topic: Chinon 6100 Sound Issues
Chris Fries
Master Film Handler

Posts: 399
From: Ohio, US
Registered: Aug 2011


 - posted November 03, 2011 07:29 AM      Profile for Chris Fries     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
As I mentioned on a previous thread, I just purchased a new projector as a backup to my old one. Turns out it I found the exact same projector, a Chinon 6100. While I wait for my new one, I would like to ask a question about the old one. One of the reasons I wanted a backup is this problem. Most film tends to be jumpy (the film below is a rare exception). But my question is about sound. Even before the jumps happened, the film soundtrack included sound of the projector sprockets.

This machine has been kept very clean inside and out but has never been serviced in any other way in 30 years. Unfortunately, I'm not that that mechanically minded. I know I'm getting another just like this that is supposed to be in perfect working order. I would also like to have the old one working just as good. It would be great for my 3x400 changeovers (or for any future full-length features [Smile] ). I have done it with the Chinon and my Sears II, but I can really see the difference in the lamp wattage up on the screen.

Can anyone please tell me what I need to do to stop the jumps and sound issue of the old Chinon 6100 and how I prevent the new one from doing this?

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Chris

[ November 14, 2011, 07:44 PM: Message edited by: Chris Fries ]

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There's a great big beautiful tomorrow just a dream away.

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Winbert Hutahaean
Film God

Posts: 5415
From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted November 03, 2011 07:46 AM      Profile for Winbert Hutahaean   Email Winbert Hutahaean   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Chris, I think your sound on the projector has WOW & Flutter issues.

I cannot explain this in lay word, please other who knows better to jump in.

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Winbert

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Jim Schrader
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1554
From: Savage, MN, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted November 03, 2011 12:20 PM      Profile for Jim Schrader   Author's Homepage   Email Jim Schrader   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
it is only heard during the musical parts is it looping properly?

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jim schrader
"Let's see “do I have that title already?"

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Winbert Hutahaean
Film God

Posts: 5415
From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted November 03, 2011 12:40 PM      Profile for Winbert Hutahaean   Email Winbert Hutahaean   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Jim, WOW & Flutter issues are easily noticeable in musical. That is why this measurement is quite sensitive in Audio industry (Turntable, tape, reel to reel).

We hardly notice during dialog except it is very high percentage.

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Winbert

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Brad Kimball
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1158
From: Highland Mills, NY USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted November 04, 2011 06:27 PM      Profile for Brad Kimball   Email Brad Kimball   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I own 3 Chinons (6000 & 7000 series models) and they all have the same problem. More noticeable in music. I gotta get me an Elmo some day. All I hear is what cadillacs they are. Just can't justify the layout right now with all the units I currently own in 8mm and 16mm combined. No hurry! Gonna wait till the machines I have crap out first. Fortunately, I only have a handful of musical titles and the wow/flutter issues aren't soooo bad that it detracts from my enjoying my gems so I'm not too overly concerned for now. Your "Grease" digest was still fun to watch and I only noticed it because I knew to listen for it.

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William Mouroukas
Film Handler

Posts: 49
From: Sydney - Australia
Registered: Oct 2011


 - posted November 04, 2011 06:49 PM      Profile for William Mouroukas   Email William Mouroukas   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I just had a quick look at the start. It's out of sync which makes me think the loop before the sound head is not correct. Sound is before vision by a frame or two. That may be putting too much tension on the film in the area of the sound head. It could be the way your projector is threading. Have you tried adjusting the loop size before the head but after the gate?

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Joseph Banfield
Film Handler

Posts: 90
From: FRANCE
Registered: Jun 2010


 - posted November 05, 2011 05:27 AM      Profile for Joseph Banfield   Author's Homepage   Email Joseph Banfield   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
He is not talking about wow and flutter but sound chatter. Chris, I would like to give you good news but unfortunately there is little that can be done with this noise you are hearing. It is a known flaw with Super 8 film because there is only 18 frames of seperation between the film gate and the sound heads, which does not allow for smoothing out of the film pulsations from the gate. The only machines that do not have this problem are those machines that have a small roller before the sound head, which eliminates this problem, but the huge majority or projectors do not! Of course most will jump in and say their machines do not do this but if those same people popped on a pair of headphones they would notice it too.

This topic has been discussed several times on this forum and if you do a search for "chatter" you will find the thread and can read further on this nasty, little known problem with Super 8 sound.

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William Mouroukas
Film Handler

Posts: 49
From: Sydney - Australia
Registered: Oct 2011


 - posted November 05, 2011 05:59 AM      Profile for William Mouroukas   Email William Mouroukas   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
That's interesting Joseph. I didn't know some machines had a roller fitted as you described. Must look into it further.

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Chris Fries
Master Film Handler

Posts: 399
From: Ohio, US
Registered: Aug 2011


 - posted November 05, 2011 07:26 PM      Profile for Chris Fries     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks, Joseph. Now I know. I've found a long informative thread here about chatter.

Topic: 24 FPS Chatter on Sound Track?

So, it's only a matter of time with the newer Chinon. I guess I will enjoy the good sound while it lasts. It is mentioned in the other thread that clean well-lubricated film tends to chatter less. Looks like I have to hunt down some Film Renew.

One good thing is I don't hear it on my Sears II. Yet...

[Frown]

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There's a great big beautiful tomorrow just a dream away.

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Brad Kimball
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1158
From: Highland Mills, NY USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted November 05, 2011 10:43 PM      Profile for Brad Kimball   Email Brad Kimball   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I think B&H made the Sears 8mm machines. I do know that the GAF sound models are all Chinons with the GAF badges on them. Funny how many things are made by one vendor for another. You just don't know for sure who truly made anything. B&H manufactured many of the Eiki 16mm projectors is another example. I wonder if Elmo made projectors for anyone else.

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Winbert Hutahaean
Film God

Posts: 5415
From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted November 06, 2011 05:22 AM      Profile for Winbert Hutahaean   Email Winbert Hutahaean   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Brad, yeah same thing now:
Chevrolet = Izusu = Opel
Ford = Mazda
Samsung = Iphone (though not admitted)
etc, etc

quote:
I wonder if Elmo made projectors for anyone else.
No ...Elmo made a way to TV episodes.... [Big Grin]

Sorry could not resist..... [Razz]

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Winbert

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Chris Fries
Master Film Handler

Posts: 399
From: Ohio, US
Registered: Aug 2011


 - posted November 07, 2011 12:34 PM      Profile for Chris Fries     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 


[ November 14, 2011, 07:42 PM: Message edited by: Chris Fries ]

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There's a great big beautiful tomorrow just a dream away.

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