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Author Topic: HELP WITH Eumig Soundomatic
Michael Yoh
Junior
Posts: 4
From: Chambersburg PA
Registered: Jan 2012


 - posted January 24, 2012 09:00 AM      Profile for Michael Yoh   Email Michael Yoh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
My daughter does film transfer to DVD. Last week, the film just suddenly stopped framing on her Eumig Soundomatic. It threads and runs through but does not index at each frame.

The only thing I see is that on the film arm, there is one pin, but seems to be a hole for another pin. Are there two pins? Did one maybe fall out? The arm seems to moving properly, both up and down, and in and out.

See pictures.

Thanks,
Mike

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Martin Jones
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1269
From: Thetford , Norfolk,England
Registered: May 2008


 - posted January 24, 2012 11:50 AM      Profile for Martin Jones     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If it's a Dual Gauge machine there should be ONLY ONE PIN.

Martin

--------------------
Retired TV Service Engineer
Ongoing interest in Telecine....

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Maurizio Di Cintio
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 977
From: Ortona, Italy
Registered: Jan 2004


 - posted January 24, 2012 01:46 PM      Profile for Maurizio Di Cintio     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I agree with Martin (I own one of these machines). But what do you mean exactly "it doesn't index at each frame"? Does it occasionallyand/or frequently loses the loop or is it consistently impossble to achieve and retain the loop? In other words can you get steady images (even for a few seconds only) or just flowing and blurred images?

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Maurizio

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Michael Yoh
Junior
Posts: 4
From: Chambersburg PA
Registered: Jan 2012


 - posted January 25, 2012 07:06 AM      Profile for Michael Yoh   Email Michael Yoh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Martin, it is dual gauge.

Maurizio,

The problem is constant. It loads the film and runs it through smoothly. On screen you just see the film flowing by, as if each frame is not incremently stopping. The projector had been working properly one moment and the next started doing this. For some reason, I don't think the claw is catching the sprocket holes. The arms "seems" to be moving up and down properly, and it "appears" that it is moving in and out far enough to engage the sprocket hole, but it is very hard to tell for sure. Whatever the reason, the film is just flowing past the projection window and not stopping for each frame. I keep gettingthe urge to just bend the arm forwrad a bit, but realize that is probably a bad choice. I keep thinking I'm missing something simple.

Mike

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Lee Mannering
Film God

Posts: 3216
From: The Projection Box
Registered: Nov 2006


 - posted January 25, 2012 07:28 AM      Profile for Lee Mannering     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Mike.
1/ Firstly make sure you are using the correct rear gate plate for either Std 8mm or Super 8mm film. Its sometimes easy in the heat of the moment to use the Std 8 plate for super 8 and the film will not engage in the gate.

2/ It could be the cam has come loose on the main drive shaft. Remove the black back cover and check the cam is firm on the drive shaft. (The cam is what the claw arm engages with)

3/ Did she remove the gates to change to the other film gauge? If so she may have accidently broken off the smaller claw pin which does happen. I’m guessing that the smaller claw pin has been broken off when swapping gates..

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Martin Jones
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1269
From: Thetford , Norfolk,England
Registered: May 2008


 - posted January 25, 2012 08:27 AM      Profile for Martin Jones     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
NO, Lee.. This machine has only 1 pin as STANDARD. There has been much discussion on this point in regard to these Eumig Machines.

The facts are .... if a machine is single gauge ONLY, it will have two claws (pins) engaging adjacent sprocket holes. If a machine is Dual Gauge it will have only ONE claw. The reason that very thin PINS are used rather than more substantial CLAWS is that both the horizontal and vertical limits of the sprocket holes vary between the two gauges, so the pin is small enough and thin enough to enter the holes of both gauges, without having to be differently positioned.
The pin stroke is the same for both, that of Super 8 frame pitch. On regular 8, the pin enters just under the TOP of the sprocket hole, so for part of the stroke it does not move the film. Both sprocket hole lower edges locate at the same position at the end of the stroke; the gate aperture plates define where the aperture is relative to the end of the stroke, defining the frame line (which is different for the two gauges). That is the ONLY reason for having two sets of plates; the plates have NO effect on the claw (pin) FUNCTIONING whatsoever. If you use the wrong aperture plate, you simply get an incorrectly framed (and sized) picture. It does not affect the actual TRANSPORT of the film AT ALL.

Martin

--------------------
Retired TV Service Engineer
Ongoing interest in Telecine....

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Lee Mannering
Film God

Posts: 3216
From: The Projection Box
Registered: Nov 2006


 - posted January 25, 2012 09:18 AM      Profile for Lee Mannering     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Michael. Can confirm you have broken off the little claw pin sad to say which only leaves behind the rear larger claw support. I expect she did it when changing the gates which I have to own up to doing myself about 36 years ago on a dual Eumig. You must remember to turn the rear black inching knob to its top red dot position in order to retract the claw prior to changing the gates over, if not you will catch the claw pin and snap it off.
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Martin Jones
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1269
From: Thetford , Norfolk,England
Registered: May 2008


 - posted January 25, 2012 10:32 AM      Profile for Martin Jones     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Lee,
I misinterpreted your reference to "the smaller claw pin " as referring to a SECOND claw pin which had been broken off, so APOLOGIES!.
But the bulk of my explanation leads to the fact that using the wrong aperture plate does not affect the transport of film (which I used to believe and which you suggested in part 1 of your answer) at all, so it's still relevant.
As you say, accidentally breaking off that pin is the catastrophic result of failing to "align the dots" when changing gates... and there's not alot you can do about it.

Lots of Dual gauge machines use "Double profile" sprockets and "sliding mask" gates, but are rarely as kind to film as the Eumigs.
Martin.

--------------------
Retired TV Service Engineer
Ongoing interest in Telecine....

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Michael Yoh
Junior
Posts: 4
From: Chambersburg PA
Registered: Jan 2012


 - posted January 25, 2012 11:25 AM      Profile for Michael Yoh   Email Michael Yoh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks guys for all your input.

Am I hearing that you both are in consensus now that there is a claw pin missing from the arm. There is a bottom pin, but a hole above it (above the white arrow) where the other pin should be? If this is the case, what can be done about it. Can I buy a pin, an arm, or whatever I need? IS there a supplier you would suggest.

It is the right plate. She did not remove the film plate, but had some film jammed in the projector which she assured me she remover by reversing the projector. However, the pin could have bee loosened at some point in time when the plate may have been removed improperly. Never knew about the rear know and the indexing dots.

She loves this projector. I'd rather get it working than buy another one, perhaps a Yelco, which seems to get high marks for film transfer.

Thanks,
Mike

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Martin Jones
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1269
From: Thetford , Norfolk,England
Registered: May 2008


 - posted January 25, 2012 01:15 PM      Profile for Martin Jones     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
NO , Michael. THE HOLE ABOVE THE WHITE ARROW IS NORMAL!!! There should NOT be anything in it!
What Lee and I are referring to is the place where the white arrow is pointing. In the picture the white arrow points to a piece of BRASS in the lower hole. Usually, there is a STEEL PIN sticking out from the centre of the brass towards the film rather like the pin of a thumb-tack, where the brass bit is the head. In your picture it is NOT there; it is missing, it has broken off.
As a result, the film will not stop in the gate, but will simply be pulled through CONTINUOUSLY by the bottom (sound )Sprocket. DO not attempt to use the machine; it will very likely damage the film.
I am not aware of anyone offering replacements for these pins; basically it's a write off as a machine, but other spare parts are sought after by enthusiasts, especially if the machine is a Sonomatic 824 HQS, which it appears to be.
Martin

--------------------
Retired TV Service Engineer
Ongoing interest in Telecine....

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Maurizio Di Cintio
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 977
From: Ortona, Italy
Registered: Jan 2004


 - posted January 25, 2012 03:40 PM      Profile for Maurizio Di Cintio     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I am really sorry I have to agree with those who preceded me: the photo leaves no doubts. Also the explanation for how the problem has started are really spot on. The fact the white dot must be alingned to a a red dot on the chassis prior to changing gate, is in the manual, with the warning that if not cared for properly, this issue will break the claw tooth. And right this model has opnly one tooth being a dual gauge machine, for the reasons Matrin Jones has so effectively exposed.

But perhaps I have a good piece of news: I may have a spare claw arm, not a genuine spare part but a part I salvaged many years ago from another machine; I'm not sure whether it's got one or two tooth(teeth) - I'll check. But even this way it may be hard to replace it.

--------------------
Maurizio

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Michael Yoh
Junior
Posts: 4
From: Chambersburg PA
Registered: Jan 2012


 - posted January 26, 2012 11:23 AM      Profile for Michael Yoh   Email Michael Yoh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Maurizio,

If you happen to have an arm, I am pretty adept at dismantling and repairing- I think I could do it.

Michael Yoh
554 E. Catherine St.
Chambersburg, PA 17201 USA

Let me know what I'd owe you.

And again both of you guys, thanks for the help. I never had a manual with the Eumig, except for a manual I purchased on line from a guy in Sweden in SWEDISH. I never picked up on the knob setting for removing the gate.

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Maurizio Di Cintio
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 977
From: Ortona, Italy
Registered: Jan 2004


 - posted January 26, 2012 01:45 PM      Profile for Maurizio Di Cintio     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'll have a look at my supplies, then.

Later...

--------------------
Maurizio

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Hugh Thompson Scott
Film God

Posts: 3063
From: Gt. Clifton,Cumbria,England
Registered: Jan 2012


 - posted January 26, 2012 03:43 PM      Profile for Hugh Thompson Scott   Email Hugh Thompson Scott       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Michael,sorry to hear of the problem with the claw on the
Eumig.I myself had this problem many years ago with my S709
then spares were pretty easy to come by and I got two replacement claws and fitted those and made the machine std8
only.The pin itself can be removed as they aren't welded just
glued and can be relaced with some care and either super glue
or "Araldite"epoxy resin.It does require a steady hand in fact
the epoxy resin glue is better because it gives you time to
position the pin,which means turning the inching knob until
the arm has done a full rotation and is still poking through the slot in the back plate before it retracts to do the next frame.
To do this just requires a strip of film placed through the sprockets and in the back plate as this is to serve as your template for the correct alignment of the claw pin registration.
That is why epoxy glue (of which only a tiny amount is required)
should be used as it gives time to work.As I say I've done this
myself in the past and I'm not an engineer but it worked on my
machine which is still going today and shows rock steady pictures.Hope it works out.Have you tried Phil Sheard for spare
Eumig pins?

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