8mm Forum: Derann

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Topic: Derann

Oscar Iniesta
Master Film Handler

Posts: 289
From: Madrid
Registered: Aug 2009

posted February 08, 2012 08:25 AM

I don´t know if Derann is still selling films. I mean, that I suppose they had a big stock. Anyone knows what happened with all? Did they sold it? It is still for sell at the shop?

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Pasquale DAlessio
Film God

Posts: 3523
From: Bristol,RI, USA
Registered: May 2010

posted February 08, 2012 08:42 AM

Hi Oscar

They closed. [Frown]

PatD

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted February 08, 2012 09:08 AM

There was a big list that came out the first week in September that had almost everything that was left. I sent my requests in maybe ten minutes after it showed up and I got absolutely nothing.

There was an Open Day that last weekend and the people that went cleaned the place out down to bare walls.

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Lee Mannering
Film God

Posts: 3216
From: The Projection Box
Registered: Nov 2006

posted February 08, 2012 09:12 AM

All I hope is that the very dedicated staff managed to find work.

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Adrian Winchester
Film God

Posts: 2941
From: Croydon, London, UK
Registered: Aug 2004

posted February 08, 2012 10:08 PM

I was about to ask a similar question about the Derann stock. Steve insn't correct about the premises being cleaned out on the final day. I was there until the last minutes and bought the last 8mm film sold there. There were a substantial number of films left. I think there were three trays fairly full off new 8mm prints, nearly all were one reelers or trailers. I'd guess that there could have been roughly about 150. I'm only incuding Derann releases in this, I also saw boxes of new silent Disney shorts being sold very cheaply. There were also a reasonable number of 16mm features and some shorts left. Despite one or two rumours, I don't think anything has surfaced yet, certainly not at Blackpool.

One interesting factor is the publicity for the final day implied that everything would be sold off for low prices, but a staff member I spoke to after the closure told me that they were told they could take an additional 10% off (from the discounted prices at that time) but that's about all. As a dealer making a bulk buy was bound to want well over 10% off, that raises the question why didn't they want to clear out the last of the stock. Presumably, they wouldn't prefer to throw it away than sell it to a dealer, so my theory is that one or more staff members wanted to retain some stock to help launch a new venture in future. Does anyone have a different explanation?

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Adrian Winchester

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Michael O'Regan
Film God

Posts: 3085
From: Essex, UK
Registered: Oct 2007

posted February 09, 2012 01:34 AM

Well, one could check Derann's final listings and the listings of some other dealers shortly afterwards - maybe this would answer your question. No mystery I'd say, if I'm any judge of horseflesh. But then, maybe I'm not.
[Smile]

[ February 09, 2012, 03:11 AM: Message edited by: Michael O'Regan ]

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted February 09, 2012 05:54 AM

That's interesting that they would have films not for sale on public view at a clearance event.

-kind of a tease!

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Adrian Winchester
Film God

Posts: 2941
From: Croydon, London, UK
Registered: Aug 2004

posted February 09, 2012 06:50 AM

I'm not saying the films were not for sale on the final day - they were - but plenty were left unsold at the end.

Regarding Michael's point: I've been looking out for the remaining new stock but I can't claim to have checked every list. Has anyone seen any dealer offering a range of NEW Derann one reelers and trailers since September? I'd be surprised, partly because surely a dealer wouldn't pay at least £18 each for one reelers that Derann had been unable to sell for £20 via their mailing list. Also, the former staff member I spoke to was unaware of any sale of prints to a dealer. A dealer might have offered (e.g.) £10 each for the remaining one reelers, but if that was the case and Derann accepted the offer, surely they would have tried to clear out as many as possible for (e.g.) £15 or less on the last day?

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Adrian Winchester

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Michael O'Regan
Film God

Posts: 3085
From: Essex, UK
Registered: Oct 2007

posted February 09, 2012 07:03 AM

Ah, my apologies. I wasn't referring to new stock, Adrian. I was under the impression that the OP was referring to their remaining prints - new and used.

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Winbert Hutahaean
Film God

Posts: 5468
From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
Registered: Jun 2003

posted February 09, 2012 07:11 AM

quote:
A dealer might have offered (e.g.) £10 each for the remaining one reelers, but if that was the case and Derann accepted the offer, surely they would have tried to clear out as many as possible for (e.g.) £15 or less on the last day?

I don't think that is the way of dealer to clear up their stuff. Every dealer surely knows its captive market. So if there were 100 reels where one person/another dealer willing to pay them for £10/each and the result of Derann's captive market analysis told if they were offered for £15/each only 50 reels would be sold on that day, Derann would choose to sell in one lot.

I don't think Derann would re open just because 150 reels left. It is so hard for a big company like this to re-open. Everything has been liquidated starting from staffs, inventories, arcieves, equipments, properties, etc, etc.

And as far as I followed here, Adrian Simmonds did not have that talent like his father used to be.

Cheers,

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Winbert

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted February 09, 2012 07:57 AM

I don't think that's fair, Winbert.

Adrian was stuck with a different market (diminishing) and different economy (crisis) to work in.

He made a hard decision in the end, I'm betting he didn't take it lightly.

Beyond it being his Parent's legacy, remember it was his own livelihood as well.

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Oscar Iniesta
Master Film Handler

Posts: 289
From: Madrid
Registered: Aug 2009

posted February 09, 2012 08:00 AM

Thanks everybody for the answer. I hope that all that machines and archives are going to start printing at a new location/lab. It is just a question of time. Hobbies never die, and people will ask for prints in a near future. What I believe, is that "legal" way to do it is not an option. Who cares if we buy and sell pirate film prints? We are a few cinema freaks (sorry) compared with the millions of internet downloaders. So this is my message to the people who knows how to print super 8 and have the posibilities of buying that machines and negatives [Wink]

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Adrian Winchester
Film God

Posts: 2941
From: Croydon, London, UK
Registered: Aug 2004

posted February 09, 2012 10:46 AM

I'd agree with Winbert in the sense that if Derann had received an offer of (e.g.) £10 a reel then they probably would have gone for it, but the fact the films were on sale suggests that they didn't receive such an offer.

Oscar - I'm afraid any reprinting of the negatives is out of the question as they were apparently all destroyed.

[ February 09, 2012, 01:05 PM: Message edited by: Adrian Winchester ]

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Adrian Winchester

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Winbert Hutahaean
Film God

Posts: 5468
From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
Registered: Jun 2003

posted February 09, 2012 11:02 AM

Sorry Steve, my impression came after reading from many UK members here how they praised Derek so much in oppose to Adrian S.

quote:
but the fact the films were on sale suggests that they didn't receives such an offer.

Is there any possibility a gentleman agreement exist between Derann and a particular person/dealer to let Derann offered all remaining reels at max 10% off and everything unsold will be bought in a lot at highly discounted price.

If there was such agreement, Derann was in safe position that whatever the result of last day sale, they still could get rid them off.

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Winbert

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted February 09, 2012 11:08 AM

Those last reels went (or are) somewhere. There were certainly enough places for them to go.

What I wonder about is the balance they struck figuring out what went on the final e-mail list and what was kept for sale later at the final open day.

That list was probably the fiercest battle we've ever seen. I remember days after it came out people coming on the boards saying they'd got nothing of what they'd asked for. Since it was nothing unusual for 90% of the films on a list to dissapear within a day I have to believe it was within an hour in this case.

-and yet there were still films available at the last open day, and now I find out leftovers too.

I wonder if maybe they got it backwards: open day and then the final list.

Winbert: All I'm saying is just because one man succeeded selling picks and shovels during a gold rush it doesn't make another a bad businessman because he couldn't 20 years after the gold was all gone. This far down the line I was amazed a business like Derann could exist at all. Even 10 years ago I was surprised when I found out about them.

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Adrian Winchester
Film God

Posts: 2941
From: Croydon, London, UK
Registered: Aug 2004

posted February 09, 2012 01:18 PM

I think it's possible that an agreement with a dealer, of the type mentioned by Winbert, exists, but if so I would have expected the films to be offered by now. But considering how 8mm prices are rising, I suppose it's just about conceivable that someone could have them but feels that there's a case for holding on to them for a while before offering them.

I'm unsure whether anything was held back for the last day. I'm almost certain that all the remaining new stock was on the final lists but maybe some of the used stock wasn't. One of the staff mentioned to me that they would normally have enough films for around the next 4 lists in stock, so when the closure was known, it was a big challenge to get it all checked and listed in the time available.

I think comparisons between Derek and Adrian Simmonds are inappropriate - I have to agree with Steve. Derek was a charismatic businessmen with great vision, but when he launched the 1980s Super 8 revival he already had years of experience and the time was right for what he had in mind. When Adrian took over, it was a very bleak time for anyone trying to make 8mm profitable, and the market had shrunk to a fraction of what it had been. Many people would have pulled out of film at the time so he deserves credit for trying to keep that side of the business going.

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Adrian Winchester

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Hugh Thompson Scott
Film God

Posts: 3063
From: Gt. Clifton,Cumbria,England
Registered: Jan 2012

posted February 09, 2012 02:54 PM

With respect to Steve and Adriian I don't think Winbert was being
facetious when comparing father to son in the case of Derann.
I, like Winbert and I've no doubt other people out there, firmly
believe that if Derek had been alive today the company would in one form or another still have been trading.I think the new releases would have become thin on the ground and the shape
of the business would have changed accordingly, possibly a big
reduction in staff and premises,It could have meant Derek
trading from home much like Ian at Perry's, killing the overheads
stone dead but knowing Derek he would have kept up the film
side of the company because he did love his film.Bear in mind
that back in the early '80s VIDEO reared It's head and that
was fierce competition,how many collectors on this forum
sold their collections etc and turned to video not cine, because
we did have monthly cine mags that were basicly killed off in
a very short time because of film buffs jumping ship,These were
very hard times coupled with three recessions under Thatcher
but his business survived.Derann Films had a very good run and
the staff there remained in employment when a lot of people
didn't.The King is Dead! Long live The King.
By that I mean CLASSIC HOME CINEMA they haven't closed the
business and are the ONLY company in the UK that release new
procduct and deserve supporting.

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Michael O'Regan
Film God

Posts: 3085
From: Essex, UK
Registered: Oct 2007

posted February 09, 2012 02:57 PM

It's been said before but I wonder why one or more of the chaps didn't continue with the business as an online concern, such as Ian or Paul F. Or even just as an ebay shop.

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Colin Robert Hunt
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 226
From: Milton Keynes Buckinghamshire
Registered: Aug 2005

posted February 09, 2012 03:10 PM

Long live the King. Derann is gone and in the world outside in finding employment the staff will find major challenges in finding work. They did there best and the days of the 8mm film releases is long gone. We still have Classic I supppose, but in the climite of today the challenge is the cost of buying releases on film, against the price od discs with all there quality. We have projectors that are needing repairs and no one can allways fix them in some cases. The world is in a state of unemployment including me and no way can I pay the price's of film features. Good luck to dealers who put these release out.but for me the cheap option of the silver disc calls.

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Hugh Thompson Scott
Film God

Posts: 3063
From: Gt. Clifton,Cumbria,England
Registered: Jan 2012

posted February 09, 2012 04:30 PM

Hi Colin,I take on board the points you make about trying to pursue an interest especially when unemployed,and I know all
about that, and yes you have to put things in perspective and
buying film comes low on the list to making ends meet.The nice
thing is that there is the secondhand market where favourite
features are usually a fraction of the price of new product.When
I was in fulltime employ I could well afford to buy new features
and literally must have spent thousands with Derann especially
when Derek was alive,but after his passing the firm changed
and the "interest"in you as a customer came across like we were mugs.So I for one don't miss them,their attitude was very
off hand and if the letters section was to be taken seriously
they were doing more business than ever,but we're kicking
over old coals they're gone and we are blessed with firms like
BUCKINGHAM FILMS,PERRY'S MOVIES,CLASSIC HOME CINEMA
PINEDENE FILMS & ELIZABETHAN FILMS and thats just in the
UK there are still people dealing in the USA and they all deserve
support or the hobby suffers,Even buying lamps etc makes a
difference and you can always make a deal or a trade in, after
all these folk want your custom more than ever.Yes dvd is a
cheap way to gather film, some can even be picked up for
pennies on AMAZON but there is something special about
taking your parcel of a much loved feature from a postman
who's soaked to the skin.Simple pleasures.

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Oscar Iniesta
Master Film Handler

Posts: 289
From: Madrid
Registered: Aug 2009

posted February 09, 2012 04:39 PM

Sorry to hear that about the negatives. I know all negatives and 35mm prints have to be destroyed... but sometimes it doesn´t happens [Wink]

Talking about DVD´s and Blueray´s, an spanish super 8 fan showed this picture in the spanish super 8 forum. I am talking about the two frames with Ripley on them. For newcomers, you can see why we choose film;
http://www.super8.es/viewtopic.php?t=6601

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Colin Robert Hunt
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 226
From: Milton Keynes Buckinghamshire
Registered: Aug 2005

posted February 10, 2012 03:20 PM

Thanks Hugh for your valued comments. I still have some fantastic prints on Super 8 that have lasted over many years, and longer than the silver disc that I do not know will last as long. I agree that Derann after Derek died the company did change. Adrian and the team did there best and I attended many open days. But still hold in the memory of Derek on those open days and he was just so much a great guy that you warmed to because of his effort in providing you with the best in 8mm. I do wiah all the staff at Derann the best in the future they deserve it. I still look out for film and there are some great releases still out there. For myself the silver disc is a cheaper option and you cannot knock the quality when it's running along with the latest surround sound. I still have a interest in film collecting as well and have now turned to getting lots of odd tralers and fearures that have been on my shelf joined up and ready for viewing. This will take a few months and I will enjoy getting back to using the old CIR tape splicer again and all the aspects of film collecting.

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Hugh Thompson Scott
Film God

Posts: 3063
From: Gt. Clifton,Cumbria,England
Registered: Jan 2012

posted February 10, 2012 05:05 PM

Hi Colin I'm pleased you're keeping your film collection.there's
no law says you can't enjoy your dvd,s as well, it isn't a case of one
or the other.I'm pretty sure that your collection has some titles
that are special and you enjoy screening now and then and that
is a good thing and keeps the interest going.Remember Col "Film
is Forever" ,I still have my very first feature bought from Derann
in '71 "The Flesh Eaters" in std 8mm and my first colour
featurettes "Seventh Voyage of Sinbad" & "Jason and the
Argonauts" which still have great colour except for the first
two reels of "Sinbad" which had a red tint to them from day one
I've yet to find good colour on these two parts and they were
American prints from Capitol Films, but they still evoke happy
memories for me as I'm sure certain titles do for you and that
is the magic that is film. You won't find the same nostalgia in
video tape or dvd,so hang on to your films Col and get them out
over the week-end and enjoy.

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Michael O'Regan
Film God

Posts: 3085
From: Essex, UK
Registered: Oct 2007

posted February 11, 2012 02:47 AM

Nice to hear you're getting active in the hobby again, Colin.

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Colin Robert Hunt
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 226
From: Milton Keynes Buckinghamshire
Registered: Aug 2005

posted February 11, 2012 03:02 PM

Thanks Michael. Had a look at lots of films that I bought over the last few conventions and the Derann open days. It's about time I sorted them out. Have some 16mm as well that need some cleaning and some resplicing, so will get cracking on them. I shall miss meeting up with you and others at the convention. It's great to meet up in person with fellow collectors and forum members. I hope Keith and John can organize another this year. I know it takes a lot of time and effort just to stage a one day event. I do miss these gatherings. Thanks Hugh for your comments and you are right films that I have bought have lasted and I have fond memories over the years. I too have the Jason and Sinbad cutdowns on Std 8 and at the time thought the quality was great. Today they stand out still very good edits and not that bad on print and sound. There was some very nice releases over the years that do still hold up today.

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