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Author Topic: Threading problem with a Eumig S720
Sarah Fellows
Junior
Posts: 12
From: Tenbury Wells, Worcestershire, UK
Registered: Mar 2012

- posted March 06, 2012 08:42 AM      Profile for Sarah Fellows   Email Sarah Fellows   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi everyone.

I work for a historic cinema and we've just purchased a 8mm projector for using with school groups, so that we can demonstrate how film works before and/or after their visit to the cinema.

I've bought a Eumig S720 and it seems to start up fine (there's a satisfying whirring noise when I plug it in) but I can't get the automatic threading to catch hold of the film when I push it into the guide.

I've followed all the instructions in the manual, but can't seem to figure out what I'm doing wrong. The film looks to be in good condition. Any help would be very gratefully appreciated!

Thanks in advance.

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted March 06, 2012 09:25 AM      Profile for Steve Klare   Email Steve Klare   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Sarah,

Welcome!

Two things to try.

1) Often the end of the leader has to be trimmed to the right shape to be grabbed by the machine. Is there a trimmer mounted on your machine?

2) Often a lever has to be depressed to initiate threading, are you using it?

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Sarah Fellows
Junior
Posts: 12
From: Tenbury Wells, Worcestershire, UK
Registered: Mar 2012

- posted March 06, 2012 09:49 AM      Profile for Sarah Fellows   Email Sarah Fellows   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Steve, thanks for the welcome!

The leader is a sort of curved edge at the end, not flat. What would a trimmer look like on the machine, or where might I find it?

The instruction manual says to press the green button and push the film into the threading mechanism at the same time. I press the button and the machine makes a clunking noise as it seems to bring the lamphead up and back a little way, then there is a second click as something else moves, then nothing else happens. After about ten seconds the lamphead moves back to its original position again. I've tried pushing in the film as I press the button, just as I press the button, whilst holding down the button and after pushing down the button until the lamphead returns. It doesn't seem to be catching on anything, but then, apart from the two clunks as the lamphead and something else move, nothing else seems to move either.

I hope all that ramble makes sense!

Thanks for your help.

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted March 06, 2012 11:17 AM      Profile for Steve Klare   Email Steve Klare   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
On my Eumig the trimmer was physically glued to the body of the machine by a former owner. It's chrome plated and looks kind of like Frankenstein's nail clipper!

It sounds like your film has the Elmo style trim, but I think that should be OK. I find my Eumig is a lot more tolerant of this trim than my Elmos are of the Eumig trim, so I trim everything with the Elmo trimmer.

Is this machine dual gauge? Are you trying to load the correct flavor of 8mm film (Regular-8 or Super-8) in a machine meant to accept it?

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Sarah Fellows
Junior
Posts: 12
From: Tenbury Wells, Worcestershire, UK
Registered: Mar 2012

- posted March 06, 2012 11:24 AM      Profile for Sarah Fellows   Email Sarah Fellows   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It's definitely the right type of film; I already made that mistake once trying to load standard 8mm film into it and wondering why the spool didn't fit! I'm using super 8 film, and the projector says it'll take super 8 and single 8.

It's only got the one place to put a spool; I think that means it's single gauge? Please excuse my ignore of technical parlance, sorry! I'm learning. [Smile]

Can't see any sort of film trimmer attached to the projector or with the bits and pieces I got in the box. Can you buy that sort of thing?

Thanks again.

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted March 06, 2012 11:58 AM      Profile for Steve Klare   Email Steve Klare   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
We're up to "Hmmmmmmm..." now!

The whirr you hear is the cooling fan. These machines preheat the lamp, which is neat because it makes them last longer, so the fan runs whenever you plug the projector in so the lamp can always be powered without tragedy.

When you place the machine in "forward" mode, does that first sprocket (that's supposed to grab the film) turn? You should be able to see it moving through the opening you are inserting the film through. Are the teeth on the sprocket on the same side of the film as the holes in the film? (stranger things have happened...)

You can fake the Eumig trim if you need to. Cut the film straight across and then nip the corners at a 45 degree angle so that about half the flat edge is left. (close enough!)

I still think the curved edge should work, but this is worth trying if all else fails.

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Sarah Fellows
Junior
Posts: 12
From: Tenbury Wells, Worcestershire, UK
Registered: Mar 2012

- posted March 07, 2012 04:04 AM      Profile for Sarah Fellows   Email Sarah Fellows   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks for your persistance!

I can't see anything turning or moving other than the two things which just clunk backwards and forwards as described above. I can see what looks to be a track (but I assume is the sprocket) through the hole I'm feeding the film into, but it's not moving.

I'm sensing a screwdriver and an steep learning curve of projector maintenance in my immediate future...?

The sprocket/track looks like the teeth go across most of the hole, they don't seem to be the same size as the holes in the film and they don't appear to be aligned to one side or the other.

If photographs would help I can snap some and upload them.

Thanks again!

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted March 07, 2012 05:09 AM      Profile for Steve Klare   Email Steve Klare   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
How about this:

When you go into "Forward", does the rear spindle turn?

Not a problem: I enjoy figuring this stuff out! It's even more fun when it's not one of my own because there isn't as much stress!

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Lee Mannering
Film God

Posts: 3216
From: The Projection Box
Registered: Nov 2006

- posted March 07, 2012 05:16 AM      Profile for Lee Mannering     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hello Sarah. Nice to read you are using a Eumig in the classroom as it was the first place I ever got to see a Eumig in the 70’s. Bad news is that you are having problems with yours and the S720 is not the usual Eumig design sorry to say. Having tried all the above it could be the threading mechanism is no longer working perhaps or perhaps you are trying to run at Standard 8 film on a Super 8 only machine? Worth mentioning that daft as it may seem.

The S720 has many differences from the more popular 800 range of models (807D-801D-822 etc) and you might just be better served looking out for one of the more recent models should you not succeed with the S720. Hope you find the problem though.

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Sarah Fellows
Junior
Posts: 12
From: Tenbury Wells, Worcestershire, UK
Registered: Mar 2012

- posted March 07, 2012 09:03 AM      Profile for Sarah Fellows   Email Sarah Fellows   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Steve; rear spindle isn't turning. Nothing moves apart from the projector head and the other little thing above it that clicks backwards (almost as if its trying to grab the film). Should the spindle be able to move if I try and turn it by hand?

Lee; hello! It's definitely the right kind of film (already made that mistake once, determined not to do it again!).

If the threading mechanism isn't working (and from what you've said, sounds like that might not be the only thing) is it possible to take it apart and try and fix it? I'm rather hoping it can be salvaged for use rather than just a display model...

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted March 07, 2012 09:45 AM      Profile for Steve Klare   Email Steve Klare   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ah!

I think this is kind of a general film transport issue. Lotsa stuff that should be moving isn't.

When you change the control knob from "stop" to any kind of "go", a pretty substantial electric motor should start spinning inside, and you should hear the difference.

Do you?

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Sarah Fellows
Junior
Posts: 12
From: Tenbury Wells, Worcestershire, UK
Registered: Mar 2012

- posted March 07, 2012 10:37 AM      Profile for Sarah Fellows   Email Sarah Fellows   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Not that I can tell, no.

This isn't a good sign, is it?

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted March 07, 2012 10:44 AM      Profile for Steve Klare   Email Steve Klare   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Wellll...

The nice part of it is it could actually be something simple: bad connection, blown fuse, a little oxide on a switch contact or a broken wire.

The not so nice is it could also be something fairly fatal like a dead motor or main power transformer.

How are you (or someone you know) at messing around with electricity?

PS: Does the lamp light? (just more facts..)

PPS: Does your Cinema have a website? Naturally there are a lot of film freaks here!

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Sarah Fellows
Junior
Posts: 12
From: Tenbury Wells, Worcestershire, UK
Registered: Mar 2012

- posted March 07, 2012 11:21 AM      Profile for Sarah Fellows   Email Sarah Fellows   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The lamp doesn't come on, but it does say in the instruction book that it's not supposed to come on until it starts rolling the film, so I guess that if the motors aren't working then that wouldn't come on.

I'm fairly comfortable at prodding around at electrics and I have a husband who is an electrical engineer so I can certainly pass it in his direction if I have an idea what I'm asking him to do!

The cinema is the Regal in Tenbury Wells. It's undergoing a Heritage Lottery Funded restoration project at the moment, which you can read all about on our blog: http://regaltenburyhlf.blogspot.com/ There's a virtual tour video on there, posted yesterday, if you'd like to have a virtual look around! We'll be doing a virtual tour of the projector room in the future, once they've finished the work in that room. At the moment it's all dust sheets and temporary lighting!

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted March 07, 2012 11:31 AM      Profile for Steve Klare   Email Steve Klare   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'm an Electrical Engineer too: condolences from my wife to you! (There may be little poetry and roses, but her car runs, her lights light and her files are safe!)

My guess is the same circuit that powers the motor powers the lamp too (...through different switches).

-Fix that circuit and maybe you'll get both back!

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Sarah Fellows
Junior
Posts: 12
From: Tenbury Wells, Worcestershire, UK
Registered: Mar 2012

- posted March 08, 2012 08:40 AM      Profile for Sarah Fellows   Email Sarah Fellows   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It does have its advantages; I never have to worry about unsolvable computer problems!

So am I looking for anything in particular when I take it apart? Specifically anything I should definitely not touch/break... though of course I'll be trying not to break any of it!

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted March 08, 2012 09:41 AM      Profile for Steve Klare   Email Steve Klare   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The most ideal thing would be to measure the voltage coming into the motor. If it's zero when the motor should be on, you have an electrical problem. If it's close to whatever the rating plate on the motor says it should be, then you have a dead motor.

If you actually do see the motor spin, but nothing else, then we have a different kettle of fish!

Please be careful: some nasty voltages are lurking there when you have that back cover off, especially up near the power transformer.

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Hugh Thompson Scott
Film God

Posts: 3063
From: Gt. Clifton,Cumbria,England
Registered: Jan 2012

- posted March 08, 2012 07:14 PM      Profile for Hugh Thompson Scott   Email Hugh Thompson Scott       Edit/Delete Post 
Steve,I'm not familiar with the later Eumigs as I use their MarkS
projectors which use a little "S" shaped fuse,which when blown
separates but can be resoldered together again.Could that be
Sarah's problem,assuming that they used that cut out in later
models?

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Jon Addams
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 638
From: New York, NY, USA
Registered: Apr 2007

- posted March 08, 2012 07:22 PM      Profile for Jon Addams     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
I use their MarkS
projectors which use a little "S" shaped fuse,which when blown
separates but can be resoldered together again.
Not a very good idea Hugh! Fuses blow for a reason and they never should be repaired or replaced without first determining why they blew in the first place.

Jon

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Hugh Thompson Scott
Film God

Posts: 3063
From: Gt. Clifton,Cumbria,England
Registered: Jan 2012

- posted March 08, 2012 07:46 PM      Profile for Hugh Thompson Scott   Email Hugh Thompson Scott       Edit/Delete Post 
Well I'm only speaking from experience Jon,and that was when my
S709 blew it's fuse after just 60mins of film and the machine was
brand new,the fuse was replaced(as spares were given)and has
never been any trouble since and that was 40 years ago.The old
fuse was resoldered and is still in the packet with the others.

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Sarah Fellows
Junior
Posts: 12
From: Tenbury Wells, Worcestershire, UK
Registered: Mar 2012

- posted March 09, 2012 07:56 AM      Profile for Sarah Fellows   Email Sarah Fellows   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'll take the projector home this weekend and see what he can make of it, and let you know on Monday what he says. You can rest assured I'll be doing my level best not to electrocute myself!

I don't suppose there are any technical diagrams for the insides of projectors anywhere? It'd be useful to know what each part is whilst it's in pieces. Doesn't matter if it's not that specific model; I assume that they're all wired with a certain degree of similarity on the inside...?

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Hugh Thompson Scott
Film God

Posts: 3063
From: Gt. Clifton,Cumbria,England
Registered: Jan 2012

- posted March 09, 2012 07:48 PM      Profile for Hugh Thompson Scott   Email Hugh Thompson Scott       Edit/Delete Post 
Dear Sarah,go to the top of the page on the forum where it asks
"Don't forget to download your Manuals" and take it from there
theres bound to be a circuit diagram for your machine.

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Sarah Fellows
Junior
Posts: 12
From: Tenbury Wells, Worcestershire, UK
Registered: Mar 2012

- posted March 20, 2012 06:37 AM      Profile for Sarah Fellows   Email Sarah Fellows   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi everyone,

Didn't manage to take the projector home (life got in the way is it is wont to do) but hopefully will some time this week. I just wanted to let you know I haven't a) given up or b) been electrocuted!

Will keep you all up to date on the diagnosis when I get a chance to take it apart.

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Sarah Fellows
Junior
Posts: 12
From: Tenbury Wells, Worcestershire, UK
Registered: Mar 2012

- posted May 11, 2012 06:51 AM      Profile for Sarah Fellows   Email Sarah Fellows   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi again.

Took the projector apart and it seems to be missing some rather crucial bits, most notably all the drive bands. I'm assuming something is supposed to connect the various cogs to the motor!

Decided to buy another, since I think I'd spend more repairing the Eumig than I did to buy it. But the Eumig will make an excellent demonstration model all the same, and one that children can actually touch without me worrying that they're going to break it.

My new projector (a Tacnon Sound 707 for those interested) does work, and we had great glee in playing a Mickey Mouse cartoon on it. I'm very much looking forward to taking it out to schools.

Thanks very much for all your help!

Best,
Sarah

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Martin Jones
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1269
From: Thetford , Norfolk,England
Registered: May 2008

- posted May 11, 2012 05:20 PM      Profile for Martin Jones     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Sarah, the Eumig doesn't have "Drive Bands"

--------------------
Retired TV Service Engineer
Ongoing interest in Telecine....

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