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Topic: Studios forcing end of 35mm?
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Bill Brandenstein
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1632
From: California
Registered: Aug 2007
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posted May 17, 2012 12:25 PM
Are these illicit copies? In a word, yes. Someone with better professional knowledge could explain this better than I, but my short take is that the theatrical prints are rented with the understanding that ownership of the print is strictly held by the studio and exhibition is only legal under a contract. Sure, there are exceptions to this, and old theatrical stuff floats about due to the odd expired copyright, defunct studio, or non-rental situations to begin with.
Like it or not, it's all about control of intellectual property for the purpose of generating revenue for its owners. That's why you can't buy 35mm copies because they're not supposed to actually be for sale. They're intended for public exhibition under strict control
Purchasing classic Derann prints and video discs is different because they're made under a license arrangement with the copyright owners, and they are "licensed for non-commercial exhibition in homes" only (or the like), and not for public or revenue-generating gatherings. I respect that, but still do my best to edit those annoying cards out of the Disney releases because I don't think my audience needs to see that EVERY time a new title begins.
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Osi Osgood
Film God
Posts: 10204
From: Mountian Home, ID.
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted July 12, 2012 12:52 PM
With this inevitable decline in "reel" projection and all, I'm so proud of Gian Luca and myself, when we came out with that super 8 animated reel, "Saturday Morning Madness".
Like all of us, Gian and I wrote back and forth, musing as to how we'd love to release something on super 8, just to add to the legacy of Super 8, instead of just posting and whining about "No one releasing anything" and other such arguments.
Yep, it was expensive, but I'll always hold in my hands, (as well as others, for it's still being printed, in small quantities) a film print that I and a few others involved, were able to bring forth, in 2010 no less! At, literally, the very "precipice" of the demise of film, in any guage.
I love being an "old fart" when it comes to film. I love the scratches, I love the splices, I love the un-ending cursing as I adjust the scope lense for the "umpth-teen" time ...
... as I chase a reel of rapidly unspooling film down the hall, cursing all the way, to the giggling of my son!
What makes me so sad, is that, expect for cine-loving folks like us, (on this forum and others and those we never hear of), we have become such a disposable society (humanity in general), that the loss of actual film is addressed with a collective yawn and a "ho-hum" as something that involved an earlier generation and therefore, it's not worth the time of day.
(grrrrr!)
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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "
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Hugh Thompson Scott
Film God
Posts: 3063
From: Gt. Clifton,Cumbria,England
Registered: Jan 2012
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posted July 12, 2012 02:59 PM
Well facts have got to be faced gentlemen,the old fashioned
method of displaying a moving image,has at long last been
superceded by an electronic process.You can have all the
collections,petitions you want,it wont make the slightest bit
of difference,eventually 35mm is going the same way as the
dinosaur.Funding a private cinema to show 35mm doesn't seem
viable,especially in today's climate,there are more deserving
cases,even though the UK seems to be run on volunteers and
charities.No,I'm afraid the writing is on the wall,as Adrian has
rightly said,the public couldn't care less, as long as it is some
well trod shit from Pixar or some equally mindless shoot 'em up
as long as they can sit and chew something it doesn't matter.
Pearls before swine springs to mind,the mass market dictates
and in my view is fine,let them have it,if the public want to be
taken for a ride thats fine,it doesn't mean I have to be taken
with them.I will wait for the DVD.
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Paul Adsett
Film God
Posts: 5003
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003
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posted July 12, 2012 03:43 PM
Even The Enzian, our local bastion of 35mm classic and indie films here in Orlando, has now installed a digital projector. They will continue running some 35mm, at least for a while, but I suspect it is just a matter of time before its all digital.
So here we are in 2012 in an all digital world. Kodak, the greatest film company on the planet, will probably cease to exist in the next few years, and the present and upcoming generations will know nothing about film.
As Hugh correctly points out - most people could care less. They will run around with their infantile cellphone cameras shooting every ridiculous thing that comes to mind, posting it on the net, and then deleting it all a few weeks later - this is the sad state of consumer photography today. The archiving of family snapshots in photo albums or shoeboxes or whatever for future generations is now gone, and all the family pics are stored in some remote file on some hard drive known only to the computer owner, or up in the sky somewhere, until it all crashes and everything is lost. One of films greatest assets is its permanence, we all know that 8mm Kodachrome shot in the 1950's looks today like it just came back from processing. Try that little trick with digital. Ask yourself how much of your digital memories holed up in your computer will still be locateable and viewable by your family's next generations?
Yes its a sad day indeed for film lovers, still or movie. I for one will probably never visit The Enzian again, unless I know the show will be 35mm. So I will content myself with my small collection of favourite films and the joy of running them on my Elmo's or Eumig's in my small home cinema which replicates, at least a bit, the cinema experience of the golden age.
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The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj
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Hugh Thompson Scott
Film God
Posts: 3063
From: Gt. Clifton,Cumbria,England
Registered: Jan 2012
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posted July 12, 2012 04:15 PM
Well said Paul,at least we all have our own films to show and exchange,and of course the fan mags and our beloved forums.
It is a tragedy,when one considers all the old cinemas that have
been destroyed or turned into something else,the same thing
happened with burlesque shows,music hall,to a certain extent
the theatres.Imagine how the people then thought at the advent
of motion picture theatres,it wont last,was no doubt said at the
time.Nothing stays the same,perhaps that's how it's meant to be,ever evolving,always changing...........well it might be for
joe public,but not this horse, I've always been a non conformist
and I refuse to alter now.I intend to be found dead either with
my hands round an MPs throat or siiting in my favourite chair
with the projector whirring in the background and a blank
white screen.After the cremation I would like my ashes to be
thrown over a government minister......while they're still hot.
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Adrian Winchester
Film God
Posts: 2941
From: Croydon, London, UK
Registered: Aug 2004
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posted July 12, 2012 07:40 PM
Gentlemen,
I'll regret the loss of 35mm as much as anyone, but the link posted by Bryan above points to another aspect of the situation that's NOT the usual film v digital angle. I don't dispute that most couldn't care less about the switch from 35mm to digital (in fact said by Michael, not me), but the article highlights that in some cases it will be a switch from 35mm to nothing. In situations where a cinema has been an important social hub of the communuity, that's a lot more serious for the communities in question than one type of projection replacing another.
I greatly applaud the New Beverly Theatre getting their documentary about the impending loss of 35mm, and its consequences, into production. You can see progress reports via: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1101489177/out-of-print-a-documentary-abo ut-the-new-beverly-c
Forums/Facebook/Twitter, etc, are OK for talking and letting off steam, but the above is passionate people actually DOING something in support of what the believe in. Even if it turns out to be completely futile, they will have the satisfaction of having made their points via the very medium they want to support, and communicating their view to large numbers of people.
Michael - I think the Prince Charles is still privately owned, Nothing there appears to indicate a link to any chain.
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Adrian Winchester
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Hugh Thompson Scott
Film God
Posts: 3063
From: Gt. Clifton,Cumbria,England
Registered: Jan 2012
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posted July 13, 2012 07:44 AM
Well I'm quite sure for the powers that be in Hollywood Adrian,
the thought of some little community suffering through their
search for more money,must have them crying into their pillows
at night.In your own country don't forget,communities were
destroyed overnight by Thatcher and her arrogance,when mining
in this country was killed off,but she was quite happy to import
coal mined by children from foreign climes.The idea that some
little village or town won't have a cinema in the long run doesn't
really matter that much,how many have already lost their local
Post Office or local Bank,that didn't seem to concern the powers
that be ,so why should the loss of a cinema,we've been there
before when they turned them into Bingo Halls.No,like I've said
already,you can complain all you want,decisions have already been taken,the die is cast.
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Adrian Winchester
Film God
Posts: 2941
From: Croydon, London, UK
Registered: Aug 2004
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posted July 13, 2012 08:56 PM
Hugh - I honestly think you're promoting a defeatest view. I have relevant experience to draw upon because in my home town (Croydon) a small 'art house' type cinema was closed in April last year, because it was run by the council on council premises and it was part of major arts-related cuts. It was no ordinary cinema, local people really loved the programming and pleasant atmosphere it offered, and in the afternoons it was often packed with retired people, who felt the loss of it more deeply than anyone. I started a campaign to reopen it, which now has approaching 500 members. We have had support from Julian Fellowes, our local MP and the BFI, and regular local press coverage. We presented a petition to the council with nearly 1500 signatures asking them to engage with constructive proposals that could enable the cinema to reopen. The council were completely negative at first but seem to have eventually realised that there negativity was damaging their reputation - and there's a limit to how unpopular they can become if they want to have a chance of being re-elected next time. Now we are talking to them about hiring the cinema for occasional screenings, prior to a likely reopening as a Social Enterprise next year. In the meantime, we present regular seasons of modern films (in the same vein of the closed cinema) in a well-equipped pub a few yards away, where we are building up a support base to make a reopened cinema a success.
I know it's a bigger challenge for some of the threatened cinemas in the USA and elsewhere to survive, but where people are actally prepared to do something, acting with determination and intitiative, great things CAN sometimes be achieved. There have been some inspiring examples in the UK. In Croydon, it's not a matter of changing the minds of "the powers that be", it's a matter of taking over the management of the cinema from them, because they were incapable of doing it well.
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Adrian Winchester
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Michael O'Regan
Film God
Posts: 3085
From: Essex, UK
Registered: Oct 2007
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posted July 14, 2012 02:51 AM
That's admirable, Adrian - what you're all doing about that cinema there in Croydon. Good luck with it.
Regarding the showings in the pub, is this 35mm, 16mm, Super 8, Digital or a bit of all four?
I think that Hugh, though, was speaking generally, in that the big picture is and will be cinema closures. There may be, here and there, situations such as your own there, where efforts by locals manage to keep a cinema open. Good luck to those that do this.
Regarding the general switch to digital presentation - that, in my view, is irreversible, and to most people it doesn't matter. As long as there's a picture on screen the vast majority of the cinemagoing public care not where it comes from. That's what I meant in my post above.
Even in the smaller cinemas such as the one you're striving to keep running - would the audience care whether they were watching film or a digital image?
I'm not trying to be defeatist, and as I say, it is admirable that you have fought and continue to fight to keep that particular cinema open, but this is how I see it.
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Mark L Barton
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 621
From: Bristol, South Glos, England
Registered: Mar 2009
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posted July 14, 2012 05:47 AM
Digital production and projection..hmmmm? Like all of you I'm in favour of wet film (celluloid) So heres a conundrum for Hollywood. I recently watched Prometheus at the Showcase Cinema (mix of Sony 4k Digi Cinema and traditional 35mm) Prometheus was shot on the Red Epic digi camera and when I watched the film it was a celluloid projection. Film will never go but the studios will rely on it less as it eats into the production budget, digi is vastly cheaper, plus the distribution on hard drives is around £150 per drive, as opposed to several reels of film (easier to transport...easier to pirate???) Having just watched The Amazing SpiderMan as a digital projection I felt like I was watching a glorified HD television, the film, adverts and trailers were crystal clear, and sterile, I might as well of watched the whole performance on blu ray at home. I want the grain of film, to see negative sparkle because it all adds up to the warmth that is film, its very organicness that connects the spectator to the film, digital is cold and humourless. I read some where that the BBC archives were reverting back to film stock, as the various updated digi formats were more costly per minute than archiving on celluloid, plus film has a longer storage life than digi media (some 100 plus years in the correct conditions etc) So if its good enough for the BBC.......
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Hugh Thompson Scott
Film God
Posts: 3063
From: Gt. Clifton,Cumbria,England
Registered: Jan 2012
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posted July 14, 2012 09:01 AM
I echo Michaels comments there Adrian,it is commendable what
you've achieved,but the fact remains that public or private,where
are you going to get the film to show if no more 35mm is
available.I'm sure there are laws that dictate what can be shown.
A thing I omitted to mention in my post above regarding the
things that have been a threat to communities and that was the
amount of pub closures in the UK,some little villages only having
the one until they closed it.That is why I mentioned more worthy causes, as the local pub is the heart of a community and
functions every day as a meeting place. In my village there is one,in the neighbouring village of Little Clifton,it has just one.
There must be scores of places in the UK that don't have any.
They were closing in Cumbria at the rate of ten per week!
So it is with the local cinemas In my home town of Whitehaven
we had three,now they are all closed,the public are indifferent.
In the long run, showing film will be a thing of the past,the
industry has ordained that, showings in Art House cinemas or
at home will be the only way to view cine film.I am not by nature defeatist,I've 17 years experience fighting peoples battles, but the one thing I can do that hurts Hollywood in a
small way is to deny them my custom,which is why I asked on a
different thread about the film "John Carter of Mars" because
I had no intention of viewing it in the cinema.
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Adrian Winchester
Film God
Posts: 2941
From: Croydon, London, UK
Registered: Aug 2004
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posted July 14, 2012 03:31 PM
Thanks for the good wishes regarding the cinema campaign I mentioned.
Michael - the screenings in the pub are DVD or Blu-ray via a digital projector. The pub has a Public Video Screening Licence so it's all above board. We/they cannot charge admission but we accept donations for our finds. However, we have done two shows on film (one S8, one 16mm) and we will be doing a one-off 16mm show in the pub in October. We find that some people consider it more of a special occasion when they see film in use.
Regarding the cinema, it has digital projection but it still has the 35mm projectors and the Campaign is proposing that these should be retained for certain special presentations, as with the Price Charles.
I'd agree that broadly there is no stopping the march of digital, but I still think that the worst and most damaging aspects of this should be given the maximum possible exposure so that people know who is reponsible. The average cinema-goer won't be too worried but anyone losing their cinema has a right to know what has caused it.
Regarding the pro-film initiative and 35mm documetary that the New Film Cinema are involved in (and they do have some very supportive film industry people such as big name directors involved), I'm not sure if they are campaigning for a limited amount of new 35mm prints to still be produced. What they definitely are asking for is the continued availability of existing features on 35mm, as even this seems threatened. As they are a revival house specialising in films from all eras, they would probably still need 35mm even if they were equipped for digital.
Hugh - I take your point about the significance of pubs, but I expect it would be very unusual for support for a cinema to be at the expense of support for a pub. In fact the pub I mentioned started screening films because they missed the trade provided by patrons of the closed cinema! People now often buy a meal as well as having a drink during the film, so it is a good initiative that some pub managers might find worth considering, if they have a suitable room.
It's highly regrettable that your 3 cinemas in Whithaven have gone, apparently with little regret, considering the UK success stories such a sthe Rex in Berkhamstead and other smaller cinemas. I believe that overall, cinema attendance is holding up well here but no doubt that doesn't prevent the smaller independents being vulnerable. Ironically, we could have too many screens in my area, with town centre developers wanting to build one - and possibly two - new large multiplexes very close to where we already have a 10-screen one!
Much as I love film, I wouldn't place myself in the category that find digital completely unwatchable. It's hard to generalise - e.g. I saw the latest 'King Kong' via ultra-shap digital at the NFT and it had the sterile look mentioned that detracted from the enjoyment, from my point of view. However, dare I say that I have seen digital features (the 2008 'Sweeney Todd' and 'The Orphanage' come to mind) that look a lot more 'filmic' and even I had to look for tell tale signs like the lack of movement, to make sure that I wasn't watching 35mm. Perhaps this reflects film stocks they were shot on but I'm no expert.
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Adrian Winchester
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Hugh Thompson Scott
Film God
Posts: 3063
From: Gt. Clifton,Cumbria,England
Registered: Jan 2012
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posted July 14, 2012 04:04 PM
Thay's good that it helps the pub as well Adrian,sort of "one hand
washing the other".A couple of miles up the road,we have the
multiplex type cinema,which is very comfortable and clean,but
I miss the special smell that the old cinemas had,the plaster
decoration and atmosphere that these old buildings exuded.Mind
on the minus side they were bloody cold in winter,but time
marches on and change,not always for the good,is always present,
It's to your credit,and the other folk involved to try and keep
what you have, as the industry only see profit margins,in a way
it's very much like "The Smallest Show on Earth",where people
running the show are the first ones through the door.I remember having a conversation with the late Ken Smith of
Ritz Films,and he explained how difficult it was to try and run
a private cinema in the face of the opposition.It must be worse
now with all the "red tape" and the 'elf & safety mob.
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