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Author Topic: Why dont Eumig's scratch?
Osi Osgood
Film God

Posts: 10204
From: Mountian Home, ID.
Registered: Jul 2005


 - posted October 20, 2012 01:14 PM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
As a general rule, they do not scratch, but they will if not properly maintained, but still magnificent projectors!

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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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Paul Adsett
Film God

Posts: 5003
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted October 20, 2012 02:02 PM      Profile for Paul Adsett     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have several Eumigs of the 800 and 900 series, and I can honestly say that I have never had the scratching experience that John describes. But, I also have never used the particular (rear projection) model that he used.

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The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj

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Hugh Thompson Scott
Film God

Posts: 3063
From: Gt. Clifton,Cumbria,England
Registered: Jan 2012


 - posted October 20, 2012 02:04 PM      Profile for Hugh Thompson Scott   Email Hugh Thompson Scott       Edit/Delete Post 
Hello Andrew,I have had my share of damaged prints through
Elmo's.I would go so far as to say I have a pathological hatred
of those shoddy plastic guides.John is right about the Eumigs
as they produced each later model, I have one of the 932s and
the difference between the 700 series and this is like night and day,plastic mouldings and casing, not good.Back to Elmo's, the
ST1200 is a great projector, good design,great playback and
a dream to use if recording it's just that they "spoilt the ship for
a ha'porth of tar" and I can never forgive them.Points to watch
are the upper sprocket guide, that should have relieved rollers
the feed shoe that does wear and requires a roller, the head presser that also supports the loop below the gate will wear
and need either polished or replaced ( i actually fitted a roller on
this after cutting away the plastic) the guide for the soundheads eventually wears and the film actuall cuts into it,
the lower sprocket guide is also a point for additional rollers
I have also removed the less than useless spring guide that
pushes back for large spools.but can cause havoc if it springs while your back is turned Elmo's I have had ST 1200s; one brand new,one
obtained from a chap who got one and hardly used it and one
from the actor Brian Murphy via Perry's and they all scratched
eventually.I was sick of buying replacement guides from
Hanimex, so I modernised them myself and fitted extra rollers
which eliminated any fear of marks,also with the GS1200.
Don't get me wrong Andrew,Elmo's are a great machine,just be
on your guard with those guides.As for Eumigs not scratching,
they are to be checked around the picture gate area,as the
copper plate on some models will wear and scratch.The film
path on the 700's was well thought out and is easily kept clean
with a thin piece of wood with lens tissue wrapped around dipped in Meths.The early Eumigs and Elmo ST1200's have a
very important common denominator, and that is it is simple
to remove a film partway, and if need be, replace it.

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Paul Adsett
Film God

Posts: 5003
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted October 20, 2012 02:37 PM      Profile for Paul Adsett     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hugh is right about the build quality of the early Eumigs. The 700 and 800 series were built like tanks, with the main chassis and cover structures made from aluminum pressure die castings. On the 900 series, the main chassis is still an aluminum casting, but Eumig went to injection molded plastic front and back covers to a) reduce weight and b) absorb noise and dampen vibration. Anyone who has lifted a GS1200 will be grateful for Eumigs weight reduction efforts. The front and back covers on the GS weigh a ton, and 5lbs could easily be shaved off by using plastics, but I doubt that many GS owner would have preferred Elmo to use plastics. But, probably what Hugh is alluding to is the greatly increased use of plastic moldings for film path and other parts on the later Eumig series. On the 926, some of the features associated with the film guide parts , rewind roller arm, and main control knob, are ridiculously fragile and could never have been put through any stress analysis- were Eumig trying to save a few bucks on injection molding material, or what? [Confused]

--------------------
The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj

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Laksmi Breathwaite
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 771
From: Las Vegas
Registered: Nov 2010


 - posted October 20, 2012 04:19 PM      Profile for Laksmi Breathwaite     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Well I guess I have heard everything. Hugh you must have studied the ELMO projectors. I happen to love the elmo SC-18 and have had no trouble sines now. My Forbidden Planet film from Red Fox has a a green line on the left far side of the film. only until it gets 3/4 way into the first reel then it just is gone? I first thought was the projector has been used to much and I did not clean it enough? Sometimes if you show films that leave a residue on rollers,gates,plastic self loading plastic bits. I thought that the print is simply in a state of decomposition in which the dyes are breaking down. because of age or climate conditions . Any way I have checked out all my films and found the same type of scratch on my first reel of my Magic Sword film also from Red Fox that is turning a bit red. The line scratch went on half way through the film but just stopped . It was nowhere else on the film. . So I'm back to my dear friend Elmo? I cleaned the film track with alcohol and sent my Goldfinger film from Pat with a prayer when I re showed it and nothing was there. I did show other films a few times before the Bond. And nothing was there. My older films had no scratch like the ones on the Red Fox films. So now I am afraid to show my high priced films on my trusted Elmo? Anyway I saw Forbidden Last night and the other reels look good with that gorgeous color. even the 007 film look great . So should I take all the plastic bits off and replace with rollers/ If I even really new how to do that. If I did it wrong I would be in worse trouble. Hugh you got to make a drawing or show pictures or something ,illustrations and detail descriptions. I once had a Eumig projector and as I remember it scratched the hell out of my Disney Cartoons I had to replace everything. I got into Elmo and kind of really liked the self loading bit because of time and everything. I seemed to scratch and tangled up the film or it got scraped on the ground . Especially out doors on those out door showings. I thought that if you keep a print clean and lubed it would be much harder to get scratched. Or keep the projector clean till the cows come home as Hugh has said ,would help. But cleaning the film like Pat has said may show things you don't want to see like those hidden emulsion demons. So what do you do just look at the film boxes like a CGC comicbook plastic case? And just only watch the film on DVD or Bluray? Or just be worried that you will play your Eumig or Elmo and those green monsters from the IT will appear.

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" Faster then a speeding bullet, more powerful then a Locomotive "."Look up in the sky it's a bird it's a plane it's SUPERMAN"

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Hugh Thompson Scott
Film God

Posts: 3063
From: Gt. Clifton,Cumbria,England
Registered: Jan 2012


 - posted October 20, 2012 04:30 PM      Profile for Hugh Thompson Scott   Email Hugh Thompson Scott       Edit/Delete Post 
Laksmi don't worry, I did mention on another thread about this
with your film scratch.Send me your address and I'll forward
some information as I can't upload or scan with this server.

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Laksmi Breathwaite
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 771
From: Las Vegas
Registered: Nov 2010


 - posted October 20, 2012 09:04 PM      Profile for Laksmi Breathwaite     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Okay remember Hugh I have a Elmo SC-18  -

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" Faster then a speeding bullet, more powerful then a Locomotive "."Look up in the sky it's a bird it's a plane it's SUPERMAN"

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John Clancy
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1954
From: Cornwall
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted October 22, 2012 02:49 AM      Profile for John Clancy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Whilst I now think the deep emulsion scratch caused by the Eumig was probably a piece of acetate film debris it is fair to say the late 70s Eumig's were cheap and fairly nasty in the main. Paul has a later machine (I believe) when they'd moved away from the tandem spools and back to conventional feed and take-up.

But I do like the RS3000 projector despite being a bit of a clunker. One day I'll try out one of the late Eumig stereo machines but right now I have enough GS1200s to keep me going and in my experience they are far superior to everything else except perhaps for the robust machinery produced by Fumeo. The problems come with the GS1200 when you purchase one second hand and don't realize how knackered it is in the first place. These machines have usually done a lot of work in their lives and you wouldn't tend to put the same amount of usage through a Eumig or most other makes.

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British Film Collectors Convention home page www.bfcc.biz. The site is for the whole of the film collecting hobby and not just the BFCC.

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David Ollerearnshaw
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1373
From: Penistone Sheffield UK
Registered: Oct 2012


 - posted October 27, 2012 05:31 PM      Profile for David Ollerearnshaw   Author's Homepage   Email David Ollerearnshaw   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
My first projector was a 'Electricity Light Machine Organization' Elmo Sound ST-1200 Magnetic & Optical. I remember this sometimes did scratch film, if memory serves me it was a green scratch down the right hand side. But for some reason not all films were scratched.

Some films seemed to have very rough slitting, if you held your fingers on the edges it felt rough. One company in the UK made a machine called something like 'equaliser' (made by the same company that made 'Cut-A-Rut'). it was made for standard 8, I think because sometimes the slitting was not smooth. Of course this could be used for super 8 too.

Another problem I found was 'green prints' these were new prints never projected before. One was scratched on its first run though. Green prints could also cause a slight up and down stutter on the image.

Cured this by using 2:22 a cleaner/lubricator, this was fantastic stuff though not made for a long time, but the prints it was used on are still lubricated. Plus it altered the light refraction and could reduce the impact of scratches. That's what it said on the tin!

I sold my ST1200 for the GS1200 mainly for stereo sound. This had a couple of 'design' faults on the film path.
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I suppose the main fault was the use of plastic for some of the film guides.

I was told by CZ Scientific that the bits highlighted in red are the main problems.

Number 1 is part of the auto thread system, this can be removed, but you lose auto thread. I wonder if 2 & 3 could removed? This also is part of the auto thread. 3 is also a part that suffers wear. I would say on the GS1200 the parts that cause the most trouble are 1 & 3. On 2 the film should not make contact anyway. All the green bits seem to be for auto thread anyway.

I always clean before, during and after each use. A blast of canned air for the film path in general, & a brush for the gate area. The compressed air could cause damage to the gate area due to its very cold air.

Think the reason I went for the ELMO's was the spool size & they looked well built. Almost forgot reviews for Eumig's was problem with hum, that put me off them.

Remember Bill Davison who reviewed 'Bootlace' in Movie Maker' used Eumig projector.

Like your view Winbert, just think how many films would be ruined if they still made projectors. Most things now seem to be made to break ASAP.

Your right Hugh. In days gone by the words Made in England/Great Britain/UK/America/Austria/Germany/France/Italy and Japan were a sign of quality. They lasted. My wife is of the "Oh its broke buy new"

Laksmi what's in the card box on the second photo? They don't look like film. [Big Grin]

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I love the smell of film in the morning.

http://www.thereelimage.co.uk/

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Patrick McGrath
Film Handler

Posts: 97
From: Huntington Beach, CA
Registered: Jul 2008


 - posted November 01, 2012 04:34 PM      Profile for Patrick McGrath   Email Patrick McGrath   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
This is a very interesting topic. I am fairly new to this hobby(4 or 5 years now) and have had a couple prints scratched from a couple different projectors. Early on I had a GAF 3000(?) that was really a Chinon in disguise. That machine was responsible for a few scratches. A Sanko 600 put intermittent faint scratches to the far left side.
The Sankyo 800 I still own was scratching when I first got it, but I was able to resurface the offending areas and added a roller at the feed-in. That one had wear at the point where the lower loop feeds into the sound head area. Basically the film bounces off the bottom of the head entrance and creates grooves. I smoothed those out but tend to keep my eye on it for further wear.
Last year I acquired a nice used ST-180 from Japan. I have used it several times, after a thorough cleaning and polish of everything plastic. I've learned a thing or two about possible scratch hazards!
I've had no issues with this machine however I decided to see if I could reduce the potential hazards by eliminating everything in the film path that could scratch.
In essence I have modified the machine into a manual thread by removing the feed tray thing, the top and bottom loop formers, and also modifying the 1st and 2nd sprocket pieces which hold the film onto them.
I'll post a few pictures when I can.
I don't find the manual thread to be inconvenient in any way, but I also collect 16mm and have an old Bell and Howell 179 which is manual thread, so I am used to it. As a matter of fact I used the 179 as a bit of a model,if you will, for my ST-180s manual thread mod experiment.

I can't agree with the sweeping statement aimed at the Japanese early on in this thread and in defense I would say that both Elmo and Eiki 16mm machines are superbly crafted, with much more thought put into film path and higher grade materials. I would guess that because the super 8 market was a lower price point certain materials were used to keep costs down for the end user. And as stated about many aspects of this hobby, it is unlikely that there was ever any thought that these projectors would still be in use 30 years later.

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