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Author Topic: Derann's "bad soundstripe" era (mid-90's)
James N. Savage 3
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1374
From: Washington, DC
Registered: Jul 2003


 - posted October 12, 2012 11:38 AM      Profile for James N. Savage 3   Email James N. Savage 3   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Well, here's a topic thats been touched on before, but I thought it deserved its own thread.

As many here know, there was a period of time when Derann was transitioning from pre-striped film, to different sound stripes, some which were very bad. I was a victim to one of these bad sound stripe prints, and I've been experimenting with it.

In the mid-90's, I bought a brand-new print of "ALIEN", in scope/stereo. When it arrived, I found this to be, visually, the most perfect print. With perfect sharpness, colors, brightness, basically a perfect print in every way- except for the soundtrack. At some parts, it sounds ok, but other part drop, or the dialog is hard to understand. Sometimes when music is playing, it sounds like its going up and down, and then an occasional "bump" is heard. With that said, it was still o.k.

When I called Derann to arrange an exchange, they advised that ALIEN was no longer available, so only a refund would be possible. I decided to keep it.

I have recently experimented with re-recording the first 400 feet of the movie. One interesting problem I found is that, no matter how many times I try to erase the original sound, there are still traces of the sound there. So, you can still hear the old sound (lightly), and the new track, and even that won't record very strongly. I decided to leave the rest of the track alone until I can find a way to erase the old track.

Has anyone else attempted to re-record one of those "bad tracks"? I would be interested to know what problems/successes you had.

Thanks.

James.

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Mark Mander
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From: Dunstable ,Bedfordshire.
Registered: Jan 2005


 - posted October 12, 2012 12:13 PM      Profile for Mark Mander   Email Mark Mander   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi James,
Which projector are you using to re-record with?

--------------------
Elmo GS1200 1.0 lens
Elmo ST1200HD 1.1 lens
Sankyo 800 1.0 lens
Elmo 16CL
Elf NT1

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Winbert Hutahaean
Film God

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From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
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 - posted October 12, 2012 12:24 PM      Profile for Winbert Hutahaean   Email Winbert Hutahaean   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
James, I don;t think soundtrack can be permanent since this is magnetic tape.

If you have a very strong magnet that the sound will be removed completely. It is not like digital disc where the sound (well... "data") is burnt onto the disc.

The problem probably on your eraser head which is not strong enough to erase the soundtrac from the stripe..

There is a gear that can erase the magnetic soundtrack on musc cassette in a second. You just need to place the cassete in the box and turn in on for few second then the sound will be completely removed. So the tape does not need to actually pass the eraser head.

So if you put your reel into this box, the soundtrack will be removed too. Do not worry it will not removed the picture... [Big Grin]

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Winbert

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Hugh Thompson Scott
Film God

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From: Gt. Clifton,Cumbria,England
Registered: Jan 2012


 - posted October 12, 2012 01:05 PM      Profile for Hugh Thompson Scott   Email Hugh Thompson Scott       Edit/Delete Post 
That's a very good suggestion Winbert,I remember one of the
problems DFS had with their sound when they first tried it on
a machine was that it sounded muffled until the heads were
adjusted and it was clear.Perhaps the same thing might apply
here, where perhaps the soundhead need be adjusted to enable
a clean wipe.

[ October 13, 2012, 08:03 AM: Message edited by: Hugh Thompson Scott ]

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Joe Taffis
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: United States
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 - posted October 12, 2012 03:37 PM      Profile for Joe Taffis   Email Joe Taffis   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
In line with what Winbert stated, here's a tape eraser I still have that I bought at Radio Shack in the '70s to use for reel to reel tapes....you can borrow it if you want to try it, let me know  -

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Joe Taffis

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James N. Savage 3
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Posts: 1374
From: Washington, DC
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 - posted October 13, 2012 05:52 AM      Profile for James N. Savage 3   Email James N. Savage 3   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks for those great suggestions guys!

I tried the erase on two different projectors- the Sankyo ST-800, and the BAUER T-610. I found it very strange that the track could still be heard.

Joe- Thank you very much for the offer to use your device. I will try a few more things, and if it doesn't work, I'll message you to make arrangements to borrow it.

James.

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Jeroen van Ooijen
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From: The Netherlands
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 - posted October 13, 2012 06:59 AM      Profile for Jeroen van Ooijen   Email Jeroen van Ooijen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I found out that it was the projector Bauer t610 that not can erase the old soundtrack so i use the Elmo st1200HD to do it in 2 times first left then right,and away sound permanent! [Wink]

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Super8 that's the greatest hobby in my life,i was 9 to have my first viewer from GAF.

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James N. Savage 3
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From: Washington, DC
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 - posted October 13, 2012 08:18 AM      Profile for James N. Savage 3   Email James N. Savage 3   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Jeroen- I'm surprised about the T-610 not being able to erase. It has an abundance of switches and recording level indicaters, and was one of Bauer's top model projectors.

I bought it used, and unfortunately it didn't come with an instruction manual. I've been tinkering with the recording switches just hoping to figure it out.

James.

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Paul Adsett
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 - posted October 13, 2012 10:47 AM      Profile for Paul Adsett     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I once had a print from Derann that my Eumig 938 could not totally erase, so that when I did a re-record I got an echo effect on the sound track, due to the slight time difference between the original (partially erased) recording and the new recording.

--------------------
The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj

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James N. Savage 3
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From: Washington, DC
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 - posted October 13, 2012 12:27 PM      Profile for James N. Savage 3   Email James N. Savage 3   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Right Paul- Thats exactly what happened with ALIEN. Its so strange, how can there be a magnetic track that can't be erased??? There should be a real market for that somewhere, really!

James.

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Adrian Winchester
Film God

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From: Croydon, London, UK
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 - posted October 13, 2012 08:32 PM      Profile for Adrian Winchester   Email Adrian Winchester   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It would be interesting to know if the equipment mentioned will COMPLETELY remove one of those difficult to erase Derann tracks. A related issue is that it's a moderately common problem to find releases striped by Derann that have annoying 'pops' and noise in the background. This has nothing to do with the recording process, it's 'built in' sound that has somehow appeared during the striping. Anyone who has a substantial number of Derann prints from the 1990s and 2000s would be very lucky if they have never found this. If erasing devices can remove this sound, that would be very good news for anyone re-recording.

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Adrian Winchester

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John Clancy
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Posts: 1954
From: Cornwall
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 - posted October 14, 2012 04:02 AM      Profile for John Clancy   Author's Homepage   Email John Clancy   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
What you have experienced is a common problem Nick. I even went so far as to try erasing all sound on a GS1200 or an SS1200 (can't remember which now) but still the original sound could just about be heard.

What I think I did was record the new sound as loud as I possibly could which negated the impact of the original recording as much as possible. However, given that this is a problem with the stripe on the print, each recording has a trace left so you need to get it right first time.

The Derann Super 8 release of Alien was not taken from an original 16mm negative so you'll be surprised to learn that it is not one of the best prints ever produced. But the good news is this means there are even better prints out there waiting to be discovered. I have two prints of this title, one a first-run print which is very good though a little too dark in places owing to all prints originating from a 35mm print and the second print is towards the end of production and is a bit all over the place in comparison but still good.

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British Film Collectors Convention home page www.bfcc.biz. The site is for the whole of the film collecting hobby and not just the BFCC.

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Gary Crawford
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 - posted October 15, 2012 09:11 AM      Profile for Gary Crawford   Email Gary Crawford   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Nick....I have an industrial "belt" eraser here at work. I guarantee it will wipe out everything. We used to use it for reel to reel tapes and also cassettes. It's about 2 and half feet long. You place the reel on one end of the belt and turn it on.... it carries the reel down the belt over several major electromagnets. You are welcome to come over with the film and I can erase it for you. Whole process for each reel takes about 5 seconds.
Oh, sorry you couldn't make Cinesea this time. It was great.

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Jim Schrader
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From: Savage, MN, USA
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 - posted October 15, 2012 09:22 AM      Profile for Jim Schrader   Author's Homepage   Email Jim Schrader   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
maybe it is the tape derann used when I was younger I obtained a cassette that was high bias when I recorded on it with simple cassette recorder I could still hear the previous recording in the background maybe derann used a high quality tape?

[ October 15, 2012, 08:41 PM: Message edited by: Jim Schrader ]

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jim schrader
"Let's see “do I have that title already?"

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David Kilderry
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 - posted October 16, 2012 07:58 AM      Profile for David Kilderry   Author's Homepage   Email David Kilderry   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If the track was applied unevenly, then it will not erase correctly either. The track would have been added via professional dubber and if the mag track was not applied perfectly, most if not all domestic Super 8 projector heads won't be able to erase all of the original sound.

Large magnet anyone?

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Paul Adsett
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 - posted October 16, 2012 09:07 AM      Profile for Paul Adsett     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
As a matter of fact David, I do posess an extremely powerful magnet. I used to work on military microwave magnetrons, and I was able to get hold of an Alnico V horseshoe magnet off an X-band magnetron. It is so powerful that if you put a steel bar across it you cannot get it off. There was a story at Litton Electron Devices where I worked, that one of our salesman was carrying one of these magnetrons in a cloth bag to a customer in New York. He went down onto the subway platform and stood a little too close to one of those steel support girders. The magnet in the bag snapped over to the girder, almost impailing the guy's hand in the process. It took a tire lever to pry the thing away from the post! [Big Grin] I don't know if this is realy true or not, but it makes a good story! I do know that the magnet is super powerful and it will destroy a watch 6 inches away.
I have never tried erasing super 8 mag stripe with this thing, but I am absolutely sure that it would wipe off everything, so I may give it a try.

--------------------
The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj

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Hugh Thompson Scott
Film God

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From: Gt. Clifton,Cumbria,England
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 - posted October 16, 2012 09:24 AM      Profile for Hugh Thompson Scott   Email Hugh Thompson Scott       Edit/Delete Post 
Sounds like a job for the "X-Men" Paul, and a good excuse to wear
a "Magneto" super villain costume.

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James N. Savage 3
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1374
From: Washington, DC
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 - posted October 16, 2012 01:49 PM      Profile for James N. Savage 3   Email James N. Savage 3   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thank you for all the great feed-back everyone. The subject is so interesting, and seems to have effected most of us at one time or another.

Gary- That would be great! I will send you an email soon to make arrangements. Maybe I could just try the 400 foot reel I've been tampering with already first. I hate to bother the rest of the movie until I can make an effective recording on this first reel. PS- Sorry I couldnt make it to CINESEA- glad you had a great time!

James.

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Hugh Thompson Scott
Film God

Posts: 3063
From: Gt. Clifton,Cumbria,England
Registered: Jan 2012


 - posted October 16, 2012 01:57 PM      Profile for Hugh Thompson Scott   Email Hugh Thompson Scott       Edit/Delete Post 
There's a sobering thought James, that at a moments notice there
are any amount of people wanting to erase your soundtracks!

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James N. Savage 3
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1374
From: Washington, DC
Registered: Jul 2003


 - posted October 16, 2012 06:44 PM      Profile for James N. Savage 3   Email James N. Savage 3   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
[Eek!] [Eek!] [Eek!]

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John Clancy
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Posts: 1954
From: Cornwall
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted October 17, 2012 09:34 AM      Profile for John Clancy   Author's Homepage   Email John Clancy   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Jim, the sound stripe in question is paste stripe.

David, the paste stripe was never applied perfectly - it's amazing Derek sussed it out at all let alone managed to get adequate recordings for the most part. I should add, some of the stripe applied at Derann was very good and fabulous re-recordings are possible. At other times though, it's poor and the original Derann recording is the best that can be achieved.

--------------------
British Film Collectors Convention home page www.bfcc.biz. The site is for the whole of the film collecting hobby and not just the BFCC.

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Jim Schrader
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From: Savage, MN, USA
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 - posted October 17, 2012 10:51 AM      Profile for Jim Schrader   Author's Homepage   Email Jim Schrader   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
ok now explain a paste strip to me, are not all films made with paste strips?

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jim schrader
"Let's see “do I have that title already?"

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Hugh Thompson Scott
Film God

Posts: 3063
From: Gt. Clifton,Cumbria,England
Registered: Jan 2012


 - posted October 17, 2012 11:07 AM      Profile for Hugh Thompson Scott   Email Hugh Thompson Scott       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Jim,paste stripe is just what it says, a liquid paste that is applied
to the film by people like Derann, laminated stripe is the tape
of which you mention that is applied with adhesive to your films.
there were a number of machines that the amateur could use to apply it, or have it done professionally.Laminated did not adhere
to mylar or estar film stocks.Hope this helps.
As a post script, John is absolutely right,if Derek Simmonds hadn't
persevered with his experiments, then film collecting would have become a secondhand domain sooner than it did.

[ October 17, 2012, 12:15 PM: Message edited by: Hugh Thompson Scott ]

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Bill Brandenstein
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 - posted October 17, 2012 12:32 PM      Profile for Bill Brandenstein   Email Bill Brandenstein   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Guys, let me caution you to never erase a tape or film stripe with any form of fixed magnet. Only the lowest quality tape recorders ever used such a thing. Gary's electromagnet belt, or a carefully applied bulk tape eraser, is the ideal, so long as you move the reel slowly.

A fixed magnet erases the track by applying a strong one-pole "charge" to the magnetic particles, in essence recording a maximum-strength north OR south. The problems with this include the possible transference of that strong magnetization to the metal parts of your machine, which can then in turn slightly erase everything else you run through it; also, it will make an excellent subsequent recording more difficult, because you're recording into particles that are already strongly magnetized, not neutral.

So an Alternating Current electromagnet is ideal because it can render the magnetic material back to randomness.

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Osi Osgood
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 - posted October 17, 2012 01:10 PM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage   Email Osi Osgood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I do agree with James on this. While most DErann prints have very good mag stripe (especialoly before the grey stripe era), sometimes that soundstripe can be downright poor.

I have a Derann print of "BEN HUR" that, while the main stripe is OK, the balance stripe constantly goes from super thin to fat and alternates like that constantly throughout the whole print ...

... which effects he stereo reporduction when viewed, of course.

However, having said that, aren't we all damned glad that Derann was there in the "foist" place?

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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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