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Author Topic: Pulse Sync
Adam Deierling
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 708
From: OH
Registered: Nov 2010


 - posted January 19, 2013 10:01 AM      Profile for Adam Deierling   Email Adam Deierling   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Can anyone tell me exactly how this works? I hear people talk about it all the time and never once have they explained how it works... Thanks!

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Douglas Meltzer
Moderator

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From: New York, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted January 19, 2013 10:19 AM      Profile for Douglas Meltzer   Email Douglas Meltzer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Adam,

Let me know if this thread helps. Pedro's site shows his amazing sync boxes.

Doug

--------------------
I think there's room for just one more film.....

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Lee Mannering
Film God

Posts: 3198
From: The Projection Box
Registered: Nov 2006


 - posted January 19, 2013 10:52 AM      Profile for Lee Mannering     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The Cresta Sim-Sync was always a popular choice for movie makers which comprised the black box unit, modified sound projector and usually a Fostex of Philips cassette recorder. A friend, sadly no longer with us used this system for all his movie making and once the sound track was completed on tape he then recorded it to sound stripe. A pulse (signal)generating system is a electronic way of locking two units together so they maintain sync. Versatile cine cameras also offered internal ac sync signals such a Beaulieu via a cable you could link to a suitable tape recorder.

Elmo also had pulse sync cine cameras and the Elmo DR-1 cassette recorder worked well with them. Once your film came back from processing you could stripe it, connect your cassette recorder to the Elmo GS1200 with a pulse cable and having switched the ESS switch over transfer the tape audio direct to mag on the film. I’m sure someone will come in who knows more about the expandability of the Elmo ESS system although I know a few have also linked them to computer for re-recording now.

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Hugh Thompson Scott
Film God

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From: Gt. Clifton,Cumbria,England
Registered: Jan 2012


 - posted January 19, 2013 01:12 PM      Profile for Hugh Thompson Scott   Email Hugh Thompson Scott       Edit/Delete Post 
Some of the systems used sprocketed tape,it was either a strobe
light or a needle on a dial where sync could be adjusted if necessary.All the systems worked quite well,as there were quite a few different variations, and it was deemed the best way of compiling a soundtrack without the need to record directly onto
the striped film,something a lot of projector manufacturers
forgot.It also made it possible for owners of silent projectors to
have a soundtrack to their films.

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Adam Deierling
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 708
From: OH
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 - posted January 19, 2013 01:33 PM      Profile for Adam Deierling   Email Adam Deierling   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If i have a gs1200 and a dvd player how hard is it to sync up a movie?

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Hugh Thompson Scott
Film God

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From: Gt. Clifton,Cumbria,England
Registered: Jan 2012


 - posted January 19, 2013 02:46 PM      Profile for Hugh Thompson Scott   Email Hugh Thompson Scott       Edit/Delete Post 
The man to get in touch with would be John Clancy, Adam.
Thereis a piece of equipment that is used between the GS and
the dvd player that ensures sync on recordings, John is the man
to speak with on this.

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Douglas Meltzer
Moderator

Posts: 4464
From: New York, NY, USA
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 - posted January 19, 2013 03:59 PM      Profile for Douglas Meltzer   Email Douglas Meltzer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Adam,

Without pulse sync, the projector and the DVD would sync up for a few minutes at most, then drift apart. I have done re-recordings with and without a sync box and it's a breeze with the box.

Doug

--------------------
I think there's room for just one more film.....

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Mark Mander
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1209
From: Dunstable ,Bedfordshire.
Registered: Jan 2005


 - posted January 19, 2013 04:15 PM      Profile for Mark Mander   Email Mark Mander   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
http://www.ffr-film.de/index.php?page=elmo&header=&language=de

Quarzbaustein für GS1200,scroll down for this item.

try these for a sync unit,it's the one i use on the GS1200 and they work really well.

--------------------
Elmo GS1200 1.0 lens
Elmo ST1200HD 1.1 lens
Sankyo 800 1.0 lens
Elmo 16CL
Elf NT1

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Mike Peckham
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1461
From: West Sussex, UK.
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted January 19, 2013 05:38 PM      Profile for Mike Peckham   Email Mike Peckham   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The crystal sync box is great for running a DVD in perfect sync with a cine film on a GS 1200. It's not necessary to connect the DVD player to the GS as the sync box locks the projector at a constant 25 fps.

The trick is to start both the DVD and the GS at exactly the same point on the film. Like Doug, I have re-recorded the sound track on commercially produced prints from a DVD using the sync box with excellant results. When re-recording, it is usually best to do it reel by reel.

You can also project a film and run the DVD for the sound track, I have done this too, but in order for it to work, you need to splice the film on to larger reels in such a way that they match the DVD frame for frame at changeovers. It's essential therefore to check that the print matches the DVD. I've done this with several films, most successfully with Derann's print of Grease. I mounted it on 2 x 1200ft reels and managed to match up the change overs to the DVD, it was therfore possibly to start the DVD and the first reel in sync and they would remain in sync for the whole 1200ft.

It's fiddly, but very satisfying. [Wink]

Mike [Cool]

--------------------
Auntie Em must have stopped wondering where I am by now...

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Mark Norton
Master Film Handler

Posts: 327
From: Hampton Hill, Middlesex, U.K.
Registered: Feb 2004


 - posted January 20, 2013 10:34 AM      Profile for Mark Norton   Author's Homepage   Email Mark Norton   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi,
I've used one of Pero's sync boxes for years and regularly show synced to CD home made super 8 silent movies ( Kodak 100D Fuji V50D) and have re-recorded many super 8 package features and trailers.
I bought the top of the range box at the time, it transformed many of my films that had less than top notch sound from my collection and also has allowed me to make home movies and later add sound tracks. Well worth the outlay.

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Ricky Daniels
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 580
From: London & Kent UK
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 - posted January 20, 2013 12:15 PM      Profile for Ricky Daniels   Email Ricky Daniels   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I must confess, I too like Mike have projected Grease and many more features with a Pedro box onto the big screen with accompanying DVD 5.1 audio and although a fiddle is immensely satisfying... just remember where those sync advance and retard buttons are located when it's dark [Big Grin]

Best,
Rick

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Alan Rik
Film God

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From: New York City, NY, USA
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 - posted January 20, 2013 12:43 PM      Profile for Alan Rik   Email Alan Rik   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Just remember that in the US the DVD's playback on the NTSC system which means they are running 23.97 fps.
So you have to make sure that the projector is running at the same speed. The Pedro box you need unfortunately is the most expensive one.

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Winbert Hutahaean
Film God

Posts: 5420
From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted January 20, 2013 02:36 PM      Profile for Winbert Hutahaean   Email Winbert Hutahaean   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I still don't understand too why we still need that pedro box to be placed in between DVD and the projector.

We knew that DVD has 99.99% constant speed. So if there is a drift it must be because the projector has the speed change (up and/or down). So my understanding that it is the projector that needs a box to maintain the speed at NTSC or PAL frame rates.

And isn't that crystal sync. button found on GS is for that purposes?

Explanation please.

--------------------
Winbert

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Oscar Iniesta
Master Film Handler

Posts: 289
From: Madrid
Registered: Aug 2009


 - posted January 20, 2013 04:19 PM      Profile for Oscar Iniesta   Email Oscar Iniesta   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I still found it a little mess. There are two devices at FFR shop. One makes the GS to work at constant speed, and the other uses the sound from a digital source to control the GS speed. So, if Winter is right, and a digital player is near 100% constant speed, we only need the crystal quartz to get the GS run at fixed speed. I live in europe, so I would need 25fps on the GS and it would run ok while my CD, PC or DVD plays sound. It´s ok? So why to use the expensive device which takes the audio L and R channels? It is better because can modify the GS speed when we have a drop in the player?
I am talking about the devices FFR sell. I know the Pedro Box offers many others advantages.
In an old post, you were talking about using the PC and a GS input to get the desired speed. Did it really work?

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Mike Peckham
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1461
From: West Sussex, UK.
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted January 20, 2013 04:25 PM      Profile for Mike Peckham   Email Mike Peckham   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
I still don't understand too why we still need that pedro box to be placed in between DVD and the projector.

We don't. The Pedro box is attached to the projector only and locks it at a specific frame rate, in Europe that's 25 fps. The DVD is automatically locked at that frame rate due to the cyles in the mains voltage. in Europe it's 50 cycles, therefore DVDs in Europe play at 25 fps (50/2 = 25).

There is no connection between the DVD player and the projector. The projector is simply locked at the frame rate of the DVD.

Simples [Wink]

Mike [Cool]

--------------------
Auntie Em must have stopped wondering where I am by now...

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John Clancy
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1954
From: Cornwall
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted January 21, 2013 03:47 AM      Profile for John Clancy   Author's Homepage   Email John Clancy   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The Pedro box is the way to go. Mike and Doug have told all that is needed and all you have to do now is purchase said box. As you are in an NTSC country you will need to the more expensive box unless you want to play PAL sourced video only through your system. Simpler to just purchase the more expensive box.

We have demonstrated all manner of sync' pulse systems at the BFCC over the years and the Pedro box is the easiest solution we've come across. Works perfectly.

I did a sync' pulse show last week where my copy of Star Trek The Deadly Years has bad sound stripes. I transferred the film to hard disc using the Pedro box for locked in 25fps sync' then cut the episode off the DVD to match exactly and created a copy on DVD to match the Super 8 print frame for frame. It's then just a question of getting the two in sync' at the start of a show.

--------------------
British Film Collectors Convention home page www.bfcc.biz. The site is for the whole of the film collecting hobby and not just the BFCC.

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Bill Brandenstein
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From: California
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 - posted January 21, 2013 12:50 PM      Profile for Bill Brandenstein   Email Bill Brandenstein   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Several years ago, John gave me the same advice (thank you again, John), because the 23.976 fps rate of US video is a troublesome little problem. But the Pedro boxes were too expensive for my budget. Since I'm pretty comfortable working in A/V software, the solution was to buy his unit designed for working from an external input, the P1008GS-P, which outputs to the Elmo GS1200MO only. So the timing and audio becomes computer-dependent, which creates several other technical problems depending on the audio hardware, operating system, and audio software in question. Still, I've had success with this. Using multitrack software and two separate audio output jacks, you create a control track (short tone bursts at the interval of 2,0002 samples apart at 48KHz audio sample rate) and send it to one output connected to the Pedro box, and send the audio to another to be connected to an amplifier and speakers.

This is cumbersome in some respects, but everything has its advantages and disadvantages, and I like the exactitude this setup affords. And the fact that nothing special nor expensive in additional tools is necessary.

At this forum there was once a discussion about feeding a squared-off pulse directly from a computer sound card to the input of the GS-1200’s ESS control input, but apparently not all sound cards have the correct electrical characteristics to make the signal “read” by the Elmo. I tried this and it sure didn’t work with my gear. So the P1008GS-P was a reasonably priced solution to keep it all in the computer.

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Winbert Hutahaean
Film God

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From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted January 21, 2013 02:08 PM      Profile for Winbert Hutahaean   Email Winbert Hutahaean   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If the trouble is because the frame rate at NTSC a bit lower from 24 fps (hence the speed is lower) what do you guys think with today`s many software (like Audicy or many VideoDJ software) that has speed adjustment feature (up/down)?.

This means we play the DVD through that software and speed up a bit to get to 24 fps instead of using that more expensive pedro?

any idea?

--------------------
Winbert

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Alan Rik
Film God

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From: New York City, NY, USA
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 - posted January 21, 2013 03:39 PM      Profile for Alan Rik   Email Alan Rik   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Actually the easier way to do it is to use the software to slow down the GS1200 so that it plays back at the 23.97 FPS.
I am using Logic Pro and generate a sync signal at 23.97fps, connect the computer to my GS1200 using the DIN cable to 1/8 inch audio cable going into the ESS input, and then start the DVD at the same time as the GS and Voila! Sync! It works great unless there are missing frames.
Here I am re-recording Poltergeist.

 -

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Oscar Iniesta
Master Film Handler

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From: Madrid
Registered: Aug 2009


 - posted January 21, 2013 04:10 PM      Profile for Oscar Iniesta   Email Oscar Iniesta   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Alan, that´s great! You have an all in one device. You have the DVD player, sound controls and the pulse generator in your PC.

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Bill Brandenstein
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1625
From: California
Registered: Aug 2007


 - posted January 21, 2013 11:34 PM      Profile for Bill Brandenstein   Email Bill Brandenstein   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Nicely done, Alan. Can you give us more detail on how you created the pulse wave, what your sound card is, and what you did to get the 1/8th inch cable correctly matched to the DIN pins for the ESS input?

Call it Pulse Sync for Dummies...)

Thanks!

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Ricky Daniels
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 580
From: London & Kent UK
Registered: Jul 2003


 - posted January 23, 2013 04:50 AM      Profile for Ricky Daniels   Email Ricky Daniels   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Alan,

Nicely done and great to see a modern solution for us pulse syncers...

However (and I know I'll have to wash out my mouth with soap after I say this) when you are pulse syncing and see the quality of the material providing the audio against the 8mm print it does beggar the question why do we bother especially when you see 1080 on a big screen!?

I'll now go and punish myself for daring to question why... [Eek!]

Best,
Rick

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Mark Mander
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1209
From: Dunstable ,Bedfordshire.
Registered: Jan 2005


 - posted January 23, 2013 10:21 AM      Profile for Mark Mander   Email Mark Mander   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Nothing wrong with that comment Ricky,It's a fact,I enjoy re-recording films and it really improves the viewing experience when it's done,Mark.

--------------------
Elmo GS1200 1.0 lens
Elmo ST1200HD 1.1 lens
Sankyo 800 1.0 lens
Elmo 16CL
Elf NT1

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Ronald Kwiatkowski
Film Handler

Posts: 67
From: Luxemburg
Registered: Nov 2012


 - posted January 23, 2013 01:22 PM      Profile for Ronald Kwiatkowski   Email Ronald Kwiatkowski   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Very interesting thread. I was considering a solution with the stuff I have, that is a laptop and a dj controller. You'd use the dj wheel to speed up or slow down the playback of the sound file, also you could start the playback with near-to-null delay (if you're a classy dj [Big Grin] ) at a specific leader number.

The pulse sync solution with Logic Pro however seems quite perfect to me, and still affordable. I imagine you could have a Logic file with different language tracks, all in 5.1.

--------------------
Vinegar belongs in the salad...

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Winbert Hutahaean
Film God

Posts: 5420
From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted January 23, 2013 02:09 PM      Profile for Winbert Hutahaean   Email Winbert Hutahaean   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ronald ...that is exactly what I was thinking when posted this;

http://8mmforum.film-tech.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=004777

As you are aware about the DJ thingy you knew that there is now a time-coded vinyl where the signal pulse is produced by vinyls to control the audio from MP3 in the computer.

I was thinking to record the signal pulse to magnetic track and then the sound coming out from the projector is hooked to the DJ software where the audio is ready.

When the projector is slowing down, the audio is also going to slowing down, right? Exactly like what happen when DJ is using time-coded cinyl.

In this regard, the sound on MP3 will never drift with the projector, right?

--------------------
Winbert

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