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» 8mm Forum   » 8mm Forum   » Beaulieu 708 EL HTI - issue, help! (Page 1)

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Author Topic: Beaulieu 708 EL HTI - issue, help!
Flavio Stabile
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 707
From: Roma, Italia
Registered: Feb 2005


 - posted February 09, 2013 03:33 AM      Profile for Flavio Stabile   Email Flavio Stabile   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi All,

my recent buying is this projector I was looking for since years!

Unfortunately I'm experiencing the following problem: when the main knob is rotated in the sound position, during the normal projection, the main loop of the film is completely lost because the film is trailed by the loop sensor roller support completely on the right (i.e. outside the projector).

The image of course becomes instable on the screen and no sound can be heard. Even the sprocket coming to the rear reel become a bit damaged!

Any help?

Flavio

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Ricky Daniels
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 580
From: London & Kent UK
Registered: Jul 2003


 - posted February 09, 2013 04:15 AM      Profile for Ricky Daniels   Email Ricky Daniels   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Flavio,

It sounds like an issue with the optical sensor for the capstan roller, try giving the sensor a clean.

Good luck,
Rick

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Flavio Stabile
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 707
From: Roma, Italia
Registered: Feb 2005


 - posted February 09, 2013 04:40 AM      Profile for Flavio Stabile   Email Flavio Stabile   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Ricky,

thanks for your reply... but, where is the sensor?

I'm preparing a video to show the defect...

Flavio

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Flavio Stabile
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 707
From: Roma, Italia
Registered: Feb 2005


 - posted February 09, 2013 07:52 AM      Profile for Flavio Stabile   Email Flavio Stabile   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
And here is the video...

https://vimeo.com/59293411

Hope someone could help...

Not yet understood where is located the optical sensor for the capstan.

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Lee Mannering
Film God

Posts: 3197
From: The Projection Box
Registered: Nov 2006


 - posted February 09, 2013 08:42 AM      Profile for Lee Mannering     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Flavio. The fault may show up better if you project some white leader film at 18fps. Just a thought.

I had a Eumig once that did this and all it turned out to be on close inspection was a loose screw on one of the two pull through sprocket wheels. A quick tighten up and fixed.

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Flavio Stabile
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 707
From: Roma, Italia
Registered: Feb 2005


 - posted February 09, 2013 10:24 AM      Profile for Flavio Stabile   Email Flavio Stabile   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Just wondering if it could be a claw problem...

I'm trying to project, in mute position, a film at 18 fps and the image on the screen is not really stable. The inter frames line, if the film is out of frame, on the screen is quite instable.

There is also a strange, not constant, noise coming from inside the objective, close to the film guide.

[Frown]

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Hugh Thompson Scott
Film God

Posts: 3063
From: Gt. Clifton,Cumbria,England
Registered: Jan 2012


 - posted February 09, 2013 11:10 AM      Profile for Hugh Thompson Scott   Email Hugh Thompson Scott       Edit/Delete Post 
The things that came to my mind Flavio would be the pressure
of the rubber wheel on capstan maybe there's not enough, or
the rubber might need replacing causing slippage or the rear
pressure plate in the gate might need some attention.

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Lee Purkis
Film Handler

Posts: 55
From: Crawley, WS, UK
Registered: Apr 2011


 - posted February 09, 2013 11:38 AM      Profile for Lee Purkis   Email Lee Purkis   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I would try cleaning the brass strip inside the loop sensor, it looks like it is sticking. The lower sprocket part which moves back toward the roller should balance out somewhere in the middle when turned to sound position but it appears to jump either all the way forward or all the way back. So there is a good chance that the brass strip is very dirty and sticking. The sprocket should slide backward/forward very smoothly, you can test this just by moving it backward and forward with your hand. If it feels very rough/sticking you need to clean the brass strip for sure.

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Flavio Stabile
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 707
From: Roma, Italia
Registered: Feb 2005


 - posted February 09, 2013 12:53 PM      Profile for Flavio Stabile   Email Flavio Stabile   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Lee,

I tried again without any film and even without power supply...
The entire block around the sprocket (sprocket support) can be moved very easily.
When the main knob is comnpletely rotated on "sound" position, the sprocket support goes completely in the right but with my fingers I can move again towards the capstan withour any resistance.
If I do this operation whekn the projector is running, but without any film, I can notice a change in the speed of the projector.
When it is completely far from the capstan the speed is higher than normal, when I move it towards the capstan the speed decreases again, I would say returning normal.

Hi Hugh,

how can I regulate or check the pressure of the film gate?

Flavio

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Hugh Thompson Scott
Film God

Posts: 3063
From: Gt. Clifton,Cumbria,England
Registered: Jan 2012


 - posted February 09, 2013 01:34 PM      Profile for Hugh Thompson Scott   Email Hugh Thompson Scott       Edit/Delete Post 
On that Flavio, I have no idea, as I have never seen the inside of
one.A friend of mine had one some years ago from Derann, but
he traded it in for something else.Are you sure that there is no
slip between the capstan & rubber roller?
I don't even know if the rear plate is accessable to check the
spring.Surely someone on this forum has one of these machines.

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Flavio Stabile
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 707
From: Roma, Italia
Registered: Feb 2005


 - posted February 09, 2013 02:43 PM      Profile for Flavio Stabile   Email Flavio Stabile   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
No Hugh, no slip between the capstan and the roller...

It seems to me that the motor of the capstan is not working as expected. If I understood well, the concept behind the "motorized capstan" is that it should be controlled by the loop tightener.
However, in the sound position, the film is completely trailed by the capstan, leaving to go completely on the right the lower sprocket group and, as seen in the video, eventually creating a loop outside the capstan!

So, what's going wrong with the capstan motor?

Is the photocell group in some way related to this behaviour?

Flavio

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Lee Purkis
Film Handler

Posts: 55
From: Crawley, WS, UK
Registered: Apr 2011


 - posted February 09, 2013 03:29 PM      Profile for Lee Purkis   Email Lee Purkis   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If the capstan pulls the film straight through and creates a loop on the right of itself after the roller i think the capstan motor might be running too fast. maybe someone messed about with the capstan speed control on the circuit board inside the projector

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Flavio Stabile
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 707
From: Roma, Italia
Registered: Feb 2005


 - posted February 10, 2013 08:55 AM      Profile for Flavio Stabile   Email Flavio Stabile   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Lee,

Yes, I suspect that something is wrong in the electronic part of the projector.
I'm not so expert to solve by myself so I will try to have it serviced here in Italy.

I will update this thread as soon as I will have news...

Flavio

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Ricky Daniels
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 580
From: London & Kent UK
Registered: Jul 2003


 - posted February 10, 2013 09:33 AM      Profile for Ricky Daniels   Email Ricky Daniels   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Flavio,

It's been a while since I owned a 708EL Stereo Projector but having just looked at your video it did remind me of the set-up.

It looks like the metal capstan pinch roller is running too fast and if I recall this pinch rollers speed is regulated by an optical sensor working behind the guide roller that is before the large take off sprocket. This guide roller should 'float' and as it moves to the left or right regulates the capstan pinch roller speed accordingly... (if I recall correctly). It looks like your capstan metal pinch roller is running at full speed and not getting any feedback from the ‘floating’ roller/optical sensor arrangement.
You may need to remove that final guide on the large sprocket and give the area behind this arrangement a good blow with a compressed air canister because something maybe 'blocking' the optical sensor. You may also need to remove the back cover of the projector and again give the area concerned a thorough clean. Failing that I think Ian at Perry's Movies maybe an expert or definitely Wittners in Germany

Good luck, I think it's a common problem and hopefully a good clean of ‘that’ area will cure this for you, otherwise you'll need to speak to Wittners who have spares.

OR you do not have enough pressure on the sound head plate that presses down on the film when the forward with sound position is engaged! This, if I recall is a mechanical arrangement that engages when you move the control knob to forward with sound and this could be the issue. Try applying pressure with your finger when you engage forward with sound and see if the floating roller floats as you apply differing pressure, if it does then maybe the problem is the sound head pressure arrangement.

Again parts are availablke from Wittners who were very helpful when I owned a 708EL STEREO projector.

http://www.beaulieu.de/pages/s8_wzub1.php?rubr=s8_wzub1

http://www.wittner-kinotechnik.de/katalog/00_home/index.php

BTW I liked the projector a lot, especially the perfect focus due to the picture head arrangement but found the lack of pulse sync an issue for me.

Best,
Rick

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Mark Norton
Master Film Handler

Posts: 327
From: Hampton Hill, Middlesex, U.K.
Registered: Feb 2004


 - posted February 11, 2013 01:19 PM      Profile for Mark Norton   Author's Homepage   Email Mark Norton   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Flavio, Although I have not had this problem you have with my 708 EL Stereo, I have had a problem with the claw. Mine was worn and had grooves from pulling down on the film. Easy to check by running your fingernail under it. I just carefully filled them out and polished with a small stone.

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Flavio Stabile
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 707
From: Roma, Italia
Registered: Feb 2005


 - posted February 11, 2013 01:50 PM      Profile for Flavio Stabile   Email Flavio Stabile   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
HI!

This afternoon I left the projector to the expert here in Rome, and from the very first inspection his thought went direclty to the capstan motor.
In sound mode it runs too fast and it's not even affected by the change of the speed (18 fps / 24 fps) and this is not normal...
He also excluded any problem related to the photocell sensor, due to the fact the moving the group with the loop sensor (that in my video completely moves on the right trailing the film) there are variations in the claw motor.

So it should be definitively a problem related to something that controls the capstan motor, but he will check in deeper.
It could be also out of regulation (let me pass this sentence) or worst a fault in the MCC 140 integrated.

Of course, once solved this he will need to check about the claw situation, if damaged or not.

Thanks to all and again and I will let you know as soon as I will receive further news (hoping good!).

Flavio

PS. One more thing.... Can anyone tell me if the Service Manual for the HTI version is available anywhere? OTC has only the standard manuanl for the halogen version... Thanks!

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Flavio Stabile
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 707
From: Roma, Italia
Registered: Feb 2005


 - posted February 16, 2013 12:45 PM      Profile for Flavio Stabile   Email Flavio Stabile   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi

today I received news from technician who is working on my Beaulieu and he told me that the problem of the capstan motor is solved! [Smile]
I have no details because it was just a phone call...

A good news... but there is another not so good! [Mad]

He is has experienced another issue... when the HTI lamp is striked on, pressing the button that creates the discharge, the entire panel with vumeters and the various lights becomes completely off and the sound disappears!

Does anyone know if there is some protection for the amplifier, probably with a relays, that intervenes during the strike, but for any reason it remains off?

Can anyone tell me where to get the HTI model service manual?

Flavio

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Viktor Gibarti
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 214
From: Budapest
Registered: Apr 2009


 - posted February 16, 2013 01:57 PM      Profile for Viktor Gibarti   Email Viktor Gibarti   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hello Flavio,

You can ask the Björn Andersson from Sweden! He is the beaulieu God, very professional service man!!!
info@beaulieu-service.com

Viktor

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Flavio Stabile
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 707
From: Roma, Italia
Registered: Feb 2005


 - posted February 16, 2013 02:54 PM      Profile for Flavio Stabile   Email Flavio Stabile   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Victor, I'll try to contact him, hoping to have a reply...

Meanwhile if someone has some idea based on his knowledge on this machine please let me know.

Thanks

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Alan Rik
Film God

Posts: 2210
From: New York City, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted February 17, 2013 12:41 AM      Profile for Alan Rik   Email Alan Rik   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I can vouch for Bjorn. He is a wizard of the Beaulieu's. He has worked on 2 x 708 El Machines and one of them was an HTI. He rebuilt the entire ballast and ignitor. I feel he is the BEST Beaulieu technician. You are in good hands with Bjorn.

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Ricky Daniels
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 580
From: London & Kent UK
Registered: Jul 2003


 - posted February 18, 2013 03:44 AM      Profile for Ricky Daniels   Email Ricky Daniels   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Flavio,
Sounds like you are in good hands. Hope it's fixed soon.
Best,
Rick

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Hugh Thompson Scott
Film God

Posts: 3063
From: Gt. Clifton,Cumbria,England
Registered: Jan 2012


 - posted February 18, 2013 08:08 AM      Profile for Hugh Thompson Scott   Email Hugh Thompson Scott       Edit/Delete Post 
It's always best to let the experts sort things out, fingers crossed for Flavio.

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Flavio Stabile
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 707
From: Roma, Italia
Registered: Feb 2005


 - posted March 02, 2013 06:15 AM      Profile for Flavio Stabile   Email Flavio Stabile   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
hi All,

my Beaulieu 708 HTI has finally been completely fixed and it works really great now!

[Big Grin]

Here below during a test...

https://vimeo.com/60773473

I'm so happy now!!!!

Flavio

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Ricky Daniels
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 580
From: London & Kent UK
Registered: Jul 2003


 - posted March 02, 2013 07:24 AM      Profile for Ricky Daniels   Email Ricky Daniels   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Good news... what was the problem in the end?

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Flavio Stabile
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 707
From: Roma, Italia
Registered: Feb 2005


 - posted March 02, 2013 08:27 AM      Profile for Flavio Stabile   Email Flavio Stabile   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
He had to replace the CS 140 and the LC 200, if I remember well....

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