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Author Topic: Re-Recording Audio
Ernie Zahn
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 540
From: Greenwich, CT, USA
Registered: Oct 2004


 - posted June 23, 2013 09:07 AM      Profile for Ernie Zahn   Author's Homepage   Email Ernie Zahn   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ive heard of folks remixing a soundtrack to stereo on their films etc, I was wondering if anyone here has had experience re-recording audio to a digest or a feature etc.

I thought it might be cool to take the DTS Master Audio from a BluRay mix it down to stereo, edit it to match a digest then re-record it on the magnetic strip.

I'm confident in my audio engineering abilities to rip the audio, edit it, adjust the speed if needed etc. Though I'm not sure I'm quick enough at the trigger to manually sync the recording on the film.

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Check out the trailer for my feature length Spaghetti-style Western:

Six and Bisti

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David Ollerearnshaw
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1362
From: Penistone Sheffield UK
Registered: Oct 2012


 - posted June 23, 2013 01:15 PM      Profile for David Ollerearnshaw   Author's Homepage   Email David Ollerearnshaw   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Had this thought myself. I tried a search on here, but came up with nothing (proberly wrong wording).

How about going the whole way, get the soundtrack on laptop and sync up to your films in full DTS.

Would be nice to know if anyone has done it. Is the software for editing DTS DD audio available?

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I love the smell of film in the morning.

http://www.thereelimage.co.uk/

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Ernie Zahn
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 540
From: Greenwich, CT, USA
Registered: Oct 2004


 - posted June 23, 2013 02:57 PM      Profile for Ernie Zahn   Author's Homepage   Email Ernie Zahn   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
You mean like play the DTS audio from a separate device and play the Super 8 print in sync with it?

That would be interesting too! I figured that re-recording it would just be simpler after the fact for future plays.

If you choose a frame as a signifier to hit play then it should play relatively well in sync, especially if you use a light weight program like VLC, so there's delay in playing.

--------------------
Check out the trailer for my feature length Spaghetti-style Western:

Six and Bisti

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Rob Young.
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1547
From: Cheshire, U.K.
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted June 23, 2013 04:51 PM      Profile for Rob Young.     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Guys, many of us here have been doing this for 30 years +

Search the forum, nothing new under the sun.

BTW names Keith Wilton & John Clancy are relevant.

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John Clancy
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1954
From: Cornwall
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted June 24, 2013 03:36 AM      Profile for John Clancy   Author's Homepage   Email John Clancy   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Funnily enough I need to find the time to do the sound for the 2x400ft cut down of Phantasm from Piccolo films. Currently the voices are dubbed and blathering on in German so it needs to correct sound recorded on there.

I have done cut downs before without editing a DVD down first but this time I plan to sync' pulse the film to 25fps and transfer it to video. Then I'll dump the VOB files from the Phantasm DVD onto the hard disc and cut it to match the Super 8 print. Then I'll create a new DVD with just the Super 8 version on it from which I can re-record the print or sync' pulse the two together.

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British Film Collectors Convention home page www.bfcc.biz. The site is for the whole of the film collecting hobby and not just the BFCC.

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Lee Mannering
Film God

Posts: 3058
From: The Projection Box
Registered: Nov 2006


 - posted June 24, 2013 03:53 AM      Profile for Lee Mannering     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The most fun I find is to rework vintage mono audio tracks into stereo. I’ve done loads of 200ft films upwards adding extra sound effects such as bats flying around from left to right, fading voices over channels etc. All I do is transfer the cine film into my video editing software then bring in the full length film audio, edit that to the cine film also applying extra sound effect from my library and do the original sound mix then transfer the lot back to stereo sound stripe making for a much enhanced presentation. Just doing a basic re record of a 400ft cut down is simple enough but to go to the next level is even better and much more fun I find.

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Rob Young.
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1547
From: Cheshire, U.K.
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted June 24, 2013 04:46 AM      Profile for Rob Young.     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Back in the days of VHS video, I got hold of a dolby surround processor and recorded the surround effects from a stereo VHS copy of Empire Strikes Back onto cassette.

Then I recorded the relevant effects onto track 2 of my 400ft super 8 version; being just effects it didn't matter too much about sync.

To play it back, I had the main speaker for track 1 under the screen, then fed track 2 output to a separate amplifier, with speakers placed around the back of the room.

So when things zoomed out from the screen, the surround filled the room.

It was quite good at the time! [Smile]

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David Ollerearnshaw
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1362
From: Penistone Sheffield UK
Registered: Oct 2012


 - posted June 24, 2013 08:07 AM      Profile for David Ollerearnshaw   Author's Homepage   Email David Ollerearnshaw   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
What software do you use John and Lee?

Does it work like this? You copy your film to video, would not need to be high quality transfer. Then get the dvd onto H/D. The software then has both your film and dvd and you edit the dvd to match your film. When you make your new dvd of your film select the dvd sound and burn.

Sounds good, I could give this a try.

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I love the smell of film in the morning.

http://www.thereelimage.co.uk/

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Lee Mannering
Film God

Posts: 3058
From: The Projection Box
Registered: Nov 2006


 - posted June 24, 2013 08:45 AM      Profile for Lee Mannering     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi David. You don’t need to do any special cine transfer for a start although in my studio we do have telecine so you can get away with a basic filming off the wall if you like as the shot sequence is the only important thing to capture. A basic video editing programme will do it with a few sound timelines if you choose to make extra audio tracks and once you have edited the new sound a good system will run real time direct from the software or you can choose to burn a disc. If it’s a one off I’ll run real time and if the tracks worth keeping burn it to disc as backup. Simples..sort of.

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David Ollerearnshaw
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1362
From: Penistone Sheffield UK
Registered: Oct 2012


 - posted June 24, 2013 12:34 PM      Profile for David Ollerearnshaw   Author's Homepage   Email David Ollerearnshaw   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Looks like I could be having fun soon. I have one film in German so that could be a good starting point.

--------------------
I love the smell of film in the morning.

http://www.thereelimage.co.uk/

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Osi Osgood
Film God

Posts: 9854
From: #399R K.O.A. Mountian Home, ID. 83647
Registered: Jul 2005


 - posted June 24, 2013 02:30 PM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage   Email Osi Osgood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The main problem is that DVD audio is recorded at 25 fps, while super 8 is 24 fps, so it's easy for it to get out of sync, obviously, un less you record at 25 fps, of course, but that can be hard to actually make work.

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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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David Ollerearnshaw
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1362
From: Penistone Sheffield UK
Registered: Oct 2012


 - posted June 24, 2013 02:35 PM      Profile for David Ollerearnshaw   Author's Homepage   Email David Ollerearnshaw   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
That's why all PAL sounds like the Chipmunks [Big Grin]

If I record at 25fps and do all the work on pc at 25fps then transfer back to film at 25 but the play at 24 it should work.

--------------------
I love the smell of film in the morning.

http://www.thereelimage.co.uk/

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Ernie Zahn
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 540
From: Greenwich, CT, USA
Registered: Oct 2004


 - posted June 24, 2013 02:39 PM      Profile for Ernie Zahn   Author's Homepage   Email Ernie Zahn   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I was planning on taking audio from BluRay because DTS Master Audio, Linear PCM, and Dolby TrueHD all are lossless but more importantly, they are better mixes even the stereo mixes are better than their DVD counterparts. AC3 mixes are infamous for their rush to market quality. That's why some nuts out there still prefer the Laserdisc releases of some films.

Also, I can adjust for speed on Final Cut.

The only thing I'm not confident in, is my ability to press record in sync! :-P

--------------------
Check out the trailer for my feature length Spaghetti-style Western:

Six and Bisti

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John Clancy
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1954
From: Cornwall
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted June 25, 2013 12:29 AM      Profile for John Clancy   Author's Homepage   Email John Clancy   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ernie, it won't make any difference by using a BD. The limitation is the the Super 8 stripe.

Sync' pulse at 25fps on a GS1200 is the way to go with re-recording. However, I've done most of my work on a Chinon SS1200 which stayed in sync' very well until it started wearing out.

Best solution for sound - create a DVD with the master audio and picture on it and run in sync' using sync' pulse. Full features screened this way, as demonstrated at the BFCC many times over the years, are the ultimate in Super 8 presentation. Combine that with an HTI lamp and you'll have the best film show ever presented... just like me!

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British Film Collectors Convention home page www.bfcc.biz. The site is for the whole of the film collecting hobby and not just the BFCC.

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Lee Mannering
Film God

Posts: 3058
From: The Projection Box
Registered: Nov 2006


 - posted June 25, 2013 02:44 AM      Profile for Lee Mannering     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Stay with a Xenon Ernie! Sorry John couldn’t resist it. [Smile] [Smile]

Other limitations are: the machine quality, worn sound head, poor quality sound stripe and cables. I went completely over the top at one point changing sockets for the gold plated type to avoid oxidisation and also invested in some high grade gold end audio cables.

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Rob Young.
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1547
From: Cheshire, U.K.
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted June 25, 2013 08:19 AM      Profile for Rob Young.     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Several years back, John spent the day re-recording my Raiders of the Lost Ark feature from DVD into stereo.

The resulting audio is tremendous, even managing to produce convincing surround in places. Crystal clear with perfect sync and floor shaking bass.

I doubt you can get better sound from super 8 stripe.

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Ernie Zahn
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 540
From: Greenwich, CT, USA
Registered: Oct 2004


 - posted June 25, 2013 09:08 AM      Profile for Ernie Zahn   Author's Homepage   Email Ernie Zahn   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks for all the helpful tips! Unfortunately I don't have a sync pulse as I only have a GS 600 Elmo.

I was thinking of trying out David's idea of sound-on-disc or something like that. Maybe pick a certain frame and hit play on the sound at just the right moment thought it would be tricky to be so precise!

--------------------
Check out the trailer for my feature length Spaghetti-style Western:

Six and Bisti

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Bill Brandenstein
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1610
From: California
Registered: Aug 2007


 - posted June 27, 2013 04:47 PM      Profile for Bill Brandenstein   Email Bill Brandenstein   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ernie, the other issue to stay aware of is the PAL framerate is 25 but here in the USA, using NTSC, it's 23.976. I've played around with a number of pulse-sync options and it can get hairy. And rewarding. [Embarrassed] )

However, without any of that equipment, I'd be looking for a way to transfer tracks to something like an old Tascam DA-88, which has variable speed playback. However, your home theater equipment will need a 6- or 8-channel analog input, and then there's always that issue of pulling the trigger at the right instant! (practice helps)

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John Clancy
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1954
From: Cornwall
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted June 28, 2013 03:30 AM      Profile for John Clancy   Author's Homepage   Email John Clancy   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Many DVD players in the US can handle PAL, particularly the cheaper ones. If you are lucky enough to have one of these and it can handle region 2 discs (a lot of the Far East imports have remote control hacks to accomplish this) then it's far cheaper to go down the PAL sync' pulse route.

Whatever though, a good stereo machine in good condition such as the Chinon SS1200 will provide good sync' capabilities with a bit of trial and error.

--------------------
British Film Collectors Convention home page www.bfcc.biz. The site is for the whole of the film collecting hobby and not just the BFCC.

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