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Author Topic: Making text in-camera on 8mm for movie title
Matthew Smith
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From: Luton, England
Registered: Aug 2013


 - posted August 20, 2013 06:00 AM      Profile for Matthew Smith     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi,

For a zero budget short I am making for the fun I would like to record the name of the movie at the beginning of the film. I have seen threads about people recording titles by recording a computer screen but would prefer to do it more diy without computers. I could just film a white board with the name written on it but I was wondering if anyone had any other methods? For example I see in the feature film Nekromantik that was shot on 8mm they use hand written text somehow for all of the introductory text.

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Robert Crewdson
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 - posted August 20, 2013 06:19 AM      Profile for Robert Crewdson     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
You could look around for a Presgrip Cine Title set.

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Dominique De Bast
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From: Brussels, Belgium
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 - posted August 20, 2013 06:27 AM      Profile for Dominique De Bast   Email Dominique De Bast   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It is maybe old fascionned but you can use magnetic letters (on a magnetic board or a fridge for example) and make them appear one by one (if your cam has a frame by frame facility). Of course, your camera has to remove steady (there are release cables to action the camera). You can also ask someone to write the title on a board while you're filming or use existing texts like a road signal if you make a documenatary of a city, a poster of an event you want to shoot and so on.

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Dominique

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Matthew Smith
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 - posted August 20, 2013 06:39 AM      Profile for Matthew Smith     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Robert Crewdson: Thank you that sounds interesting.

Dominique De Bast: Very interesting ideas thanks - it does not have a frame by frame function but I will be doing a scene doing stop motion where I will just press the shutter release button very quickly, its not ideal but it will work. Filming someone write the title is quite a nice idea too.

Since it is just a point and shoot type camera I can never be sure what is in focus or see the edges of what is being captured and cut off by the lens. I saw with one of my still cameras that I could use a glass lens as a diy macro lens, I would do the same for that with this camera in order to focus on a close up of the title text, but the way the camera is made I could not really easily do that, because the film gate etc is in the way so I cannot test with a lens to see when the image inside the camera is now sharp or not etc. I'm using to cameras like twin lens reflex/slr still cameras where you always know what is sharp and not, and what is cut off by the camera. I inherited the camera though so I want to use it specifically rather than buy a different one.

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Dominique De Bast
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 - posted August 20, 2013 09:42 AM      Profile for Dominique De Bast   Email Dominique De Bast   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I assumed that your camera was a super 8 reflex one but from what you precised it looks like being a standard 8 (double 8) with the paralax problem (what you see throug the eyefinder is not exactly what you will see on the screen because of the distance between this eyefinder, or maybe it's called viewfinder in English, and the lens). It is not really a problem while you shoot from a certain distance but is not convenient when you shoot someting close. So, except if you are prepared to make tests to find exactly at which position and which distance you will see what, I would advide you to use only big letters (that you could for example put on a wall with the small rubbers that are used to hold photos or posters). Talking about a wall, if you know someone who is going to repaint one, don't hesitate to use it to make titles with paint (of course, take the opportunity to make several ones at one time, like "The End" titles for example). You can also, put letters on a big glass or a window (with the rubbers I mentionned) and shoot the title sharp and the rest not. If your camera is double 8, you can make surimpression by filming a white title on a black support and then rewind the film (in the dark of course). This is not as easy as it seems as you don't know exactly how many lenght of filmstock you should rewind and as the double exposure makes the picture a little bit darker. The time of cheap filmstock is over so trial and errors may be not a jouyfull option. A last thing, the focus depends on three things 1) the lens you use, the higher the number is, the more care you have to take for the focus 2) the distance, the further from the camera what you film is the less you have to care 3) the aperture, generally it goes from 1,8 to 16 or 22, the higher the figure is (and of course it needs more light), the deeper the focus field is and the less you have to care about. I don't like to post technical messages like this one as English is a foreign language for me, if anything is not clear, I appologize for it.

--------------------
Dominique

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Robert Crewdson
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 - posted August 20, 2013 10:02 AM      Profile for Robert Crewdson     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Welcome to the forum Matthew; my first camera was a point and shoot, non reflex, but it gave superb results, but when sound came out naturally I wanted to get into that.

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Matthew Smith
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 - posted August 20, 2013 11:50 AM      Profile for Matthew Smith     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Dominique De Bast: I appreciate the detailed reply. Yes I should have said, it is a kodak "brownie movie camera" with a f1.9 lens, which is just point and shoot and takes the older standard 8mm film yes. Yes you have to just look through the viewfinder and aim rather then looking directly through the lens. The only things that you can change is the aperture.

It will have parallax yes, though kodak added a little adjustable feature to the viewfinder so that if you are quite close to the subject you can compensate for that. I have a lot of experience shooting still film cameras, but I almost always use slr/tlr type cameras where you see what is in focus, though I have used box cameras where you also have only fixed focus and an adjustable aperture. The window/wall idea is very good thank you. I do not know anyone who is painting walls but I'm sure the other idea will work well. The film I am using is around iso 6 so it is incredibly slow, so the window method might be best for the light.

No problem I understood everything perfectly [Smile]

Robert Crewdson: thanks. I see, yes if I have a choice I prefer slr/tlr type cameras when doing still photography as you know once and for all what is sharp and what is not, but I do appreciate fixed focus cameras like box cameras and my brownie movie camera, you just cannot comfortably shoot to the very minimum focus distance without risking making a blurry image. It would just be a big bonus if I could improvise a portrait/macro lens from a magnifying glass lens like you can easily with reflex cameras, so that I could do very close up scenes. I thought about doing some tests by putting some lenses over the brownie camera lens and hoping that one of them end up making a sharp image of close up subjects on the developed film, but it could become wild goose chase since theres so many factors that could go wrong. The easiest way to do that is maybe to disassemble the camera so that I can remove the lens and do manual tests like I would with a still camera, though I have a film in right now.

I thought about recording sound alongside the silent film I will be making but I'd like to keep it as traditional as possible, so it would seem wrong mixing digitally recorded sound with an old 8mm silent film, but I might consider it in the future if I really want the sound too.

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Bryan Chernick
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 - posted August 20, 2013 11:57 AM      Profile for Bryan Chernick   Email Bryan Chernick   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I like using a black background with white letters, it seems to be easier to read when it's projected. With Kodak negative film stock still being readily available I wonder what it would look like to soot it with black letters and a white background and then just project the negative. You may want to use an entire cartridge for just titles.

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Matthew Smith
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 - posted August 20, 2013 12:04 PM      Profile for Matthew Smith     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Bryan Chernick: ok thanks for the tip. I did see that these two short films was shot with the same camera, and they apparently used white letters on black cloth for the introductory text. I was quite surprised as it looks so sharp and contrasty. It is very legible though http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXK-Tm0WClc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BE52kJButCg

Though the second one is not so legible, its maybe because the letters are so thin.

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Robert Crewdson
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 - posted August 20, 2013 12:32 PM      Profile for Robert Crewdson     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Matthew, A Presgrip cine title set wouldn't be any use with your camera. You need one with a zoom lens, or a reflex capable of using close up filters. The camera I had (super 8) was in focus from around 6 feet to infinity. Do you have rewind on your camera? if so, you could film white letters on a black background, rewind the film and the letters will be superimposed over the image. Good luck.

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Dominique De Bast
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 - posted August 20, 2013 12:34 PM      Profile for Dominique De Bast   Email Dominique De Bast   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
You can add sound on your film on a traditionnal way. You need to send it to a lab to add a strip and then you can record on the strip with a sound projector (of course, it's an investment, so you may consider it when you have a little amount of films). To get back to the titling, whatever you will do, it will have to be in bright light with a stock like this (of course, you can also use a faster stock later and shoot your titles then and splice them). As, in your case, big letters seem to be the best option, you can also use what you have close to you and linked with the film. It can be sand if it starts at the beach, it can be dust and so on. I mentionned a wall but it can also be someting written with chalk on the pavment. I don't know if it could help you, but it is possible to add (I don't know if it is on your camera) a close up lentil on the lens. Before you open your camera with all the risks that could lead to, try to see if you cannot find something like that if you think that you really need to shoot close (with the parralax problem). About the linked you gave, I think that the problem with the second title is that there was an exposure problem. It was probably automatic and the aperture was too high (because the background was dark).

--------------------
Dominique

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Gerald Santana
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 - posted August 20, 2013 12:34 PM      Profile for Gerald Santana   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
You need a titling set like Hernard or use sticker lettering on glass.

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http://lostandoutofprintfilms.blogspot.com/

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Robert Crewdson
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 - posted August 20, 2013 12:39 PM      Profile for Robert Crewdson     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Here's an interesting little advert for the Kodak Brownie 8mm cine camera from 1957.
http://archive.org/details/1957CommercialForKodakBrownieHomeMovieCamera

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Matthew Smith
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 - posted August 20, 2013 01:11 PM      Profile for Matthew Smith     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Robert Crewdson: Ok I see, I thought about how it could work from the information I could find, and I thought it must perhaps work that way. My camera's minimum focus distance is 2ft at f16, though with my incredibly slow film I will not be able to film at f16, maybe if I shoot directly into very strong light though or push process the film. It cannot rewind unfortunately, though because the film is so slow you can use it with a darkroom red light so I could open the camera and manually rewind it inside the camera, thanks for the idea I understand now how that method must work, that sounds great for a professional look. I think Dominique mentioned that method earlier but I realize now that I must have misunderstood what he actually meant. Ah yes I've seen that advertisement, it was nice to see. Mine is the "model II" so it has a f1.9 lens and the viewfinder is unfortunately plastic rather than that one's metal one. Exactly like this one: http://cdn.iofferphoto.com/img/item/952/824/75/6gaeSjekwZUVoED.jpg

Dominique De Bast: Ah yes I've read you can add a sound stripe, it is a possible option for the future yes. Great ideas thanks. Kodak did apparently only make a wide angle and telephoto lens for the camera. The camera looks quite simply mechanically but I would be very careful in disassembling it, it does have big obvious screws though and looks in general like it would not hurt it to take it apart. I understand now what you meant about rewinding the film with white letters on black and superimposing the text, I misunderstood originally, this idea sounds very good so I may try that. Though my camera does not have a rewind function, because the film is so slow I can open it in a darkroom with a red light and probably manually rewind it myself to do this.

Gerald Santana: alright thank you.

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Dominique De Bast
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 - posted August 20, 2013 01:35 PM      Profile for Dominique De Bast   Email Dominique De Bast   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I may not have been clear enough about what I called the close up. Maybe someone can give the correct name in English. It is a filter looking special additionnal lens that you screw on the existing lens of your camera. (lentille d'approche or bonnette in French) It doesn't has to be made by Kodak, it has to have the same diametre as your lens (and your lens must have of course a screw possibility). From the picture I cannot see if your camera has variable speed. If it has, in your case because you need a as small as possible aperture, and only for any shooting of fix objects (like titles) and (as you see it is restrictive) only if the camera is completely steady the slower you shoot, the better it is. Again, it is an advise for this particular situation as otherwise it would be recommanded to shoot at a faster speed to have a steadier picture.

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Dominique

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Robert Crewdson
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 - posted August 20, 2013 01:47 PM      Profile for Robert Crewdson     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Matthew, I tried this method of titling twice, neither was perfect. I was using a Super 8 with auto exposure and manual override. first I exposed white letters against a black background. I had a Craven Super 8 rewinder. When the film was processed the background was great but the white lettering was very pale: 2nd time I overexposed by 1 stop, the white lettering burnt the emulsion. On developing, the lettering was great, but the background looked a bit pale. I never tried it again, had I done so I think I would have overexposed by half a stop.

Focusing down to around 2 feet is good; a childs blackboard would be useful. Keep the group informed how you get on with this.

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Joe Taffis
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 - posted August 20, 2013 03:51 PM      Profile for Joe Taffis   Email Joe Taffis   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Matthew, for my super 8 films shot in the 1980s I used a box called the "Cinegraphica" that enabled me to create superimposed titles by projecting a background film (that I wanted the titles to appear over) with a projector on one side of the box, while filming the titles over the background film with my super 8 camera from another side of the box, The titles were applied to art paper attached to a movable revolving window section on a third side of the box. It worked well, but it was a lot of work attaching the small stick on letters to spell the titles. The last film I used it for I just used a white felt marker on black paper, and printed them with that...much easier!

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Joe Taffis

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Bruce Wright
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 - posted August 20, 2013 04:13 PM      Profile for Bruce Wright   Author's Homepage   Email Bruce Wright   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The lettering on glass I have used many times. In fact we
have one glass with black letters and one with white. The real advantage is you have the option of infinite back grounds.
Usually it is best NOT to use fancy style lettering. Block lettering works almost any time. There is just nothing like watching your own creation on the "BIG SCREEN". Remember it's
LIGHTS--SPEED--ACTION !!

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Bruce Wright

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Pete Richards
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 - posted August 20, 2013 09:30 PM      Profile for Pete Richards   Email Pete Richards   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I love the opening titles on Napoleon Dynamite.
http://vimeo.com/5524216
Think outside the box like that and you could make something very cool.

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Winbert Hutahaean
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 - posted August 20, 2013 11:38 PM      Profile for Winbert Hutahaean     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Use the computer (or TV screen). The today's LCD and LED panel is bright enough to be taken by super 8mm camera. Good screen will not create flickers.

I did this once and not bad.

Here is my posting regarding this:

Filming titles from a computer screen

Good luck...!

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Winbert

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Matthew Smith
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 - posted August 21, 2013 08:51 AM      Profile for Matthew Smith     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Dominique De Bast: I think I understand what you mean, just a lens that you add onto the existing lens. The default lens that comes with the camera cannot be screwed off anyway, I have tried, it is meant to stay on like a point and shoot camera. The lenses they sold work the same way you describe, you are meant to put them onto the existing lens, but it seems they only made a telephoto and wide angle lens. It can only shoot at one speed unfortunately, it is about 1/35 of a second/16fps. It does have a screw in the lens for the addon lenses, but it I don't believe any other company made addon lenses for this model camera. But maybe you can buy a non-kodak close up lens and fasten it yourself to make it work.

Robert Crewdson : Thanks for the tips. Maybe if you underexposed the background a bit it could also help. I don't have a blackboard have a large piece of black plastic and cardboard lying around that could work. I will make a post about it once I see the results yes.

Joe Taffis : I see yeah sometimes the low-tech method is the easiest and best. If I try using cutout letters I might try blutac as someone else suggested.

Bruce Wright : Ok, I was tempted to make the title in fancy style but I also realized its hard to make fancy lettering without thin parts, as the thicker the letters the clearer it will probably end up on the film, so I will probably stick with very basic letters. thanks, I am looking forward to seeing the results. It will be in splatter horror comedy style and if it turns out well I will be very pleased.

Pete Richards : thanks that is a good example yes, you don't often see more creative diy titles like that in modern tv/film which isn't done digitally.

Winbert Hutahaean: I read that thread yes when I was searching for alternative methods, but I would like to do something more DIY/low-tech. thanks.

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Robert Crewdson
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 - posted August 21, 2013 10:02 AM      Profile for Robert Crewdson     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Matthew, Cokin make close up filters from 1 - 4 diopters, and you can screw one in front of another, unfortunately, I don't think they make them that small. Bell & Howell used to make close up filters for their lenses, which were probably about the same size (I'm thinking about the filmo 70s from the 1930s). You would probably find it difficult to find a filter smaller than 49mm, which is a popular size for SLR.

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Matthew Smith
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 - posted August 21, 2013 01:38 PM      Profile for Matthew Smith     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks Robert, yes the thread section on the end of the lens for addon filters/lenses is around 23mm in diameter. I have some random plastic/glass lenses so I can test with them in the future when the cameras empty if I am able to remove the lens so that I can manually figure out if I can make a makeshift close up lens.

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Dominique De Bast
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 - posted August 21, 2013 06:36 PM      Profile for Dominique De Bast   Email Dominique De Bast   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Robert, small close ups exists. The 9,5 Pathé Baby had this as accessory. There was also a tittler and, as it was specially made for this camera (wich was the only one), you knew were to put the camera to avoid paralax default.

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Dominique

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Steve Klare
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 - posted August 21, 2013 07:41 PM      Profile for Steve Klare   Email Steve Klare   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
OK, this is just a little computer based!

Microsoft had no idea when they brought out Word that they were actually creating a wonderful movie titler. (I'm guessing they had no idea how useful Excel is for creating a cut list for editing either...)

I take a blank document. I format it "landscape". I insert any picture I want full page sized. I put a text box anywhere I want on the picture (clear, no border) and choose text from multiple typefaces, sizes, effects and colors.

I print it 8.5" by 11", surround the picture with a black border and film it on the floor with a camera on a tripod pointed straight down and zoomed until the title fills the frame.

 -

This is from a film I just finished about my son and me spending the weekend at CineSea 6. This title comes just before our trip to Wildwood starts, and fits the "film about film" theme this one was about.

I drove, so I guess that makes me "Ollie".

--------------------
All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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