8mm Forum: The Future of New Product Releases

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Topic: The Future of New Product Releases

Ernie Zahn
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 540
From: Greenwich, CT, USA
Registered: Oct 2004

posted September 12, 2013 01:40 PM

I wanted to discuss this but navigating the topic carefully is important because of a recently locked and removed topic that shall remain nameless.

The U.S. is at 90% digital for theaters. It's expected that by the end of 2013 it will be 100% in the U.S. and 2015 worldwide.

This means no more release prints to use to get new prints on Super 8. I wouldn't expect new feature films but it would be nice to get a few trailers every year or so.

The only option we'd be left with (that I can think of) would be a filmout process. Frame by frame digital to film.

I have a set up that can do 4k to Super 8 at frame by frame. I haven't tested it out yet. I'm going to give it a shot and see what it looks like. And try it for personal use. I can report back on results.

But it looks like someone has already attempted this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlehhO_Rjck

I messaged the guy and he said he did this from an HD source and is thinking of offering Super 8 filmout as a service.

The way I see it, if there will still be new product from CHC and The Reel Image in 2017, the releases will either be 3-4 years old or older. Or the trend will move toward a filmout solution if you want to see a trailer for The Avengers 3 or the next Bond film etc on Super 8.

I'm not asking about thoughts on cost or copyright. Please refrain from those comments, in order to keep this thread stable and open.

Let's assume there's a cost effective solution that maintains current prices or perhaps brings them down slightly. And there is an authorized license.

My question is, does digital to film break the enjoyment for you? Is it less special since it's not coming from a highly coveted 35mm negative?

I know this is all hypothetical but this is kind of around the corner.

I think there have been digital to Super 8 releases before but I don't think on the source material scale that I'm talking about.

Here's a comparison of he source material I'd be using.

The specs BluRay VS 4k ProRes:

Resolution: BluRay 1920x1080 | 4k ProRes 3840x2160
Color Space: BluRay 4:2:0 | 4:4:4
Birate: 60mbps | 290mbps

Suffice it to say, even though it's digital, it's still better than anything you can pick up at Wal Mart or even at a really nice home theater store.

So just to reiterate, if it comes to this, is that when you bow out of new releases? Is that when you stick to OOP collecting or are you gonna keep on trucking?

P.S. I have never inquired with Steve or Phil on what their thoughts are on the future of Super 8 film releases 5 years from now. They may already have something in mind or maybe they don't. I have no clue. I'm still going to keep supporting their efforts and I appreciate them keeping the hobby alive. All these above mentioned thoughts and plans are my own. Except for the video done by another guy.

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Check out the trailer for my feature length Spaghetti-style Western:

Six and Bisti

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Dominique De Bast
Film God

Posts: 4486
From: Brussels, Belgium
Registered: Jun 2013

posted September 12, 2013 02:02 PM

I am not specialised in technic but I think it is possible to get acceptable results. Before the video appeared, all the live tv shows were filmed from a tv set screen. They were special tv screens (with higher contrast as I understood) but as the screens of today are with higher resolution, it should be possible with common ones. Some members reports that they filmed animated titles from a computer screen with good results, so, why not ?

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Dominique

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Fabrizio Mosca
Master Film Handler

Posts: 346
From: Milano, Italy
Registered: Jan 2004

posted September 12, 2013 02:32 PM

From a lab point of view, you need a 16mm negative from which you print 2 super8 copies at the same time (printing film is double super8 with 1-3 perforation, so suitable only for optical reduction print).
Due to this, the solution shall also be to have a negative from the digital source (basically what happens for printing 35mm prints nowadays). I suppose that this solution, with a suitable machine, can produce better results than making an internegative from a 35mm positive print.
The fact is that you should have such a machine.

As per myself, I think I would accept this "compromise" with no regret

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Ernie Zahn
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 540
From: Greenwich, CT, USA
Registered: Oct 2004

posted September 12, 2013 02:46 PM

Fabrizio, that's true. As far as I know that is the current process done for new releases from 35mm. It's a 35mm print, to 16mm to super 8.

With this however, it would be possible to a do a frame by frame capture of the digital source on reversal Super 8 film. Send it through E6 process but deny it certain steps in developing and thus make a fully color and light balanced negative. Reversal film is developed as a negative and then reversed to positive.

With that negative Andec could make direct prints on Super 8 that could then be striped. That way in the lab it is only Super negative to Super 8 positive.

http://www.andecfilm.de/en/e_s8_neg_pos.htm

Kodak doesn't make reversal anymore but there are still reversal options out there that have good grain and good color. These stocks could serve as master prints to produce multiple copies.

Dominique, also true. Most of the Honeymooners episodes, for example, were broadcast live and filmed off a screen for saving. But their process wasn't quite as sophisticated.

--------------------
Check out the trailer for my feature length Spaghetti-style Western:

Six and Bisti

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Fabrizio Mosca
Master Film Handler

Posts: 346
From: Milano, Italy
Registered: Jan 2004

posted September 12, 2013 04:08 PM

I don't know if the reversal developed up to the negative stage will provide the same results as using directly a negative (that you have on super8).
Furthermore, after the dismissal of Ekta 100D, apart from Velvia, in my perspective there are no more good reversal super8 films on the market.
In addition, with super8 you have the limitation to 50ft cartdrige, while with 16mm you can have at least 400ft film in the same magazine.
BTW, you may use the same principle changing super8 with 16mm and this will give a better result when printed back on super8 (using also dedicated film for the process), even if you need to produce 2 copies at the same time.

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Ernie Zahn
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 540
From: Greenwich, CT, USA
Registered: Oct 2004

posted September 12, 2013 04:34 PM

I've seen fantastic results with reversal negative. Also have you seen the reversal stock that Pro8mm uses? I think it looks pretty great.

Lastly, I'm not aware of a negative 16mm stock that I can buy that has balanced color and light w/o adjustments in DI.

--------------------
Check out the trailer for my feature length Spaghetti-style Western:

Six and Bisti

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Adrian Winchester
Film God

Posts: 2941
From: Croydon, London, UK
Registered: Aug 2004

posted September 12, 2013 05:37 PM

I don't have sufficient technical expertise to comment on the process but I think the key thing would be to get a 'test' trailer produced so something is 'out there' that collectors can evaluate. I wonder if someone has already done that because last year we saw the mysterious, apparently 'one off' Super 8 copy of the 'Prometheus' trailer on eBay. I wish I'd bid higher and won it, but I don't believe CHC or Steve O had any involvement in this.

Personally if the quality is quite reasonable and the price isn't excessive, I wouldn't be put off buying something from a digital source, although for me a Super 8 print would seem more satisfying if I knew the film was shot on 35mm in the first place.

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Adrian Winchester

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Pasquale DAlessio
Film God

Posts: 3523
From: Bristol,RI, USA
Registered: May 2010

posted September 12, 2013 06:20 PM

I checked out the video and I think the quality is excellent.

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Pete Richards
Master Film Handler

Posts: 302
From: Australia
Registered: Sep 2010

posted September 12, 2013 06:52 PM

Making a film recorder is not that difficult and can achieve excellent results.
The main thing is to have a range of test patterns to put out to the film stock of choice. Then you can create a LUT for the film recorder to ensure the colours stay true after their transition to film. I used to do this for a living on 35mm film many moons ago, I can't see why it wouldn't work just as well with Super8 or 16mm.

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Fabrizio Mosca
Master Film Handler

Posts: 346
From: Milano, Italy
Registered: Jan 2004

posted September 13, 2013 01:40 AM

Ernie, I haven't seen the reversal stock Pro8 sells, I'll have a look as I don't like the new Agfa 200D and I'm looking for alternatives for filming in super8.

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Ernie Zahn
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 540
From: Greenwich, CT, USA
Registered: Oct 2004

posted September 13, 2013 08:48 AM

It can be a bit grainy but it can also look pretty good in right conditions.

Also I haven't tried them yet but The Reel Image sells A Fuji 100 ASA stock and an Agfa 200 ASA stock.

[ September 13, 2013, 09:51 AM: Message edited by: Ernie Zahn ]

--------------------
Check out the trailer for my feature length Spaghetti-style Western:

Six and Bisti

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Lee Mannering
Film God

Posts: 3216
From: The Projection Box
Registered: Nov 2006

posted October 02, 2013 10:40 AM

I’m in the process of shooting with 200D and it has been interesting taking extra precautions with such fast speed 8mm motion picture stock, fast for me anyway. Talking to users it is important to use a 2X ND filter when filming in daylight conditions as it does seem to deliver much better results. The sprocket hole pitch is excellent with good punching and I’m getting to like the low lighting flexibility with it. If you ever used the old Agfa Moviechrome it was not over brilliant looking quite blue but this 200D is extremely useful and it’s got me hooked. A good lens on your cine camera will make all the difference as I found when switching to a Schneider optic to get the max from 8mm and on the whole I like 200D.

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