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Author Topic: Hard Days Night Feature Classic Release--Lab defect?
Alan Rik
Film God

Posts: 2211
From: New York City, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted April 22, 2014 09:58 PM      Profile for Alan Rik   Email Alan Rik   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Everyone,
I purchased a print of this off of a member here a few months back. The print was described as mint. Well..the print arrived and the physical condition of the print was mint but the printing? Not good.
Take a look at the strange white bar at the bottom of the screen:
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and also here:

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When I asked the seller about it he told me that "all the prints are the same". Is that true? Can anyone confirm if you have this print? That way I know to stay clear of this title.

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Graham Ritchie
Film God

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From: New Zealand
Registered: Feb 2006


 - posted April 22, 2014 11:29 PM      Profile for Graham Ritchie   Email Graham Ritchie   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Alan

I don't have a print myself and not sure about what would cause that distracting print mark at the bottom....who released it?. The B/W looks washed out, and its not very sharp, almost like a old B/W TV look. I would not say that print is "mint" that's for sure.

I remember a collector from "Aussie" once told me that the 16mm print of "Oliver" the musical he was selling was in excellent condition, but after a bit of probing from me, he did add that the color was "red" [Roll Eyes] ....but he still insisted it was in excellent condition...there are some misleading crooks out there in my view.

The seller should have been more up front with you, regarding its "true" condition....I would ask for my money back.

Graham.

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Fabrizio Mosca
Master Film Handler

Posts: 346
From: Milano, Italy
Registered: Jan 2004


 - posted April 23, 2014 01:28 AM      Profile for Fabrizio Mosca   Email Fabrizio Mosca   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Alan, I have the print but have not screened it yet. Let me have some time to verify if mine has the same problem (is that defect in that part only or are there other places where it happens?)
Regarding sharpness, I confirm that also mine is not so good for that reason and that there are some focus problems throughout the print.
As far as I know, the film was printed from an old 16mm negative coming from the USA and is not taken from the recent release that came out in cinemas some years ago.

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Pasquale DAlessio
Film God

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From: Bristol,RI, USA
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 - posted April 23, 2014 02:53 AM      Profile for Pasquale DAlessio     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Any B&W Beatles films I have had were the same as this one. Nothing I would describe as "Mint"! Refund time.

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Alan Rik
Film God

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From: New York City, NY, USA
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 - posted April 23, 2014 06:21 AM      Profile for Alan Rik   Email Alan Rik   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks for all the replies. The film had been sent back a few weeks ago and I received the refund thru Paypal. The seller helped pay to have it sent back overseas which was nice.
Sharpness was hit and miss throughout and also the strange white bar at the bottom was thru all the reels in varying degrees of 'whiteness'. Sound quality was so so. It actually sounded like an optical print! Kind of tinny and screechy on some reels. I was not a happy camper. I was hoping this was a one off but apparently not.

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Fabrizio Mosca
Master Film Handler

Posts: 346
From: Milano, Italy
Registered: Jan 2004


 - posted April 23, 2014 12:29 PM      Profile for Fabrizio Mosca   Email Fabrizio Mosca   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Alan, I've checked my copy and also mine has that problem in Printing.

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Maurizio Di Cintio
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 977
From: Ortona, Italy
Registered: Jan 2004


 - posted April 23, 2014 02:31 PM      Profile for Maurizio Di Cintio     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Sometimes I have the impresison people mistake the conservation conditions with the printing quality. These are two totally different aspects, albeit they go side by side: personally I wouldn't be interested in a perfectly preserved print with no dirt or scratches etc but badly printed at the time it was printed. On the contrary I might be interested in a perfectly printed copy, as regards both colors and sharpness, even if it had some signs of wear like a little dirt here and there and some sparse scratches. Bottom of the line: when a print is said to be "minty" some further queries might be advisable....

--------------------
Maurizio

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Graham Sinden
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: Kent, UK
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 - posted April 23, 2014 06:34 PM      Profile for Graham Sinden   Email Graham Sinden   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Keith Wilton reviewed this and stated that the master used was not very good so these are not top notch prints we have come used to from the German labs, but its a rare film on Super 8.

Graham S

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Winbert Hutahaean
Film God

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From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
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 - posted April 23, 2014 07:50 PM      Profile for Winbert Hutahaean     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
A newly printed film from lab and never been screened is obviously "mint" condition.

The quality of print is another matter, this would be graded as sharp or soft.

During the Derann's days, staffs always refereed to the physical condition not the print quality.

--------------------
Winbert

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Graham Ritchie
Film God

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From: New Zealand
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 - posted April 23, 2014 09:13 PM      Profile for Graham Ritchie   Email Graham Ritchie   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Derann I am sure, would have rated that above film as "C" condition and noted those print faults as well in the sale, for collectors to be aware of... not "A"...very seldom would they add the term "mint". If they did you could be sure it was just that, in the "print quality" as well.

I bought heaps from Derann over the 20 plus years and when I saw the "A" rating I was never disappointed, even A/B was pretty good.

Looking once again at the above screen shots it does look like its been copied of some old "sub standard" TV 16mm print.

Its little wonder film collectors might give up on this hobby for VP dvd/Blu-ray when they get caught out like that.

Graham.

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Alan Rik
Film God

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From: New York City, NY, USA
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 - posted April 24, 2014 12:52 AM      Profile for Alan Rik   Email Alan Rik   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I wonder why Classic didn't do an answer print first before running a bunch of copies all with the same defect? I too would prefer a print with no printing defects but a line here, a line there, scratch. That I can live with but if the printing quality is bad..I just never watch those. Thats why I sold, "Little Mermaid". The softness killed me every time I ran it. I would ride the focus and then realize, "Oh yes. No point in doing that. It was printed soft".
Thanks for all the replies and hopefully this will help someone in the future if they are looking to secure a print of "Hard Days Night" and was curious about the quality of the feature.

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John Hourigan
Master Film Handler

Posts: 301
From: Colorado U.S.A.
Registered: Sep 2003


 - posted May 03, 2014 12:36 PM      Profile for John Hourigan   Email John Hourigan       Edit/Delete Post 
Agree, Graham. Printing from an old 16mm negative -- soft focus and screechy sound -- that's what passes for acceptable (requiring big bucks) for a release? Amazing. Hence the reason my home cinema that's under construction will also have a full-blown digital projection system.

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Michael O'Regan
Film God

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From: Essex, UK
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 - posted May 03, 2014 12:39 PM      Profile for Michael O'Regan   Email Michael O'Regan   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
That's a poor looking print.
I wonder do collectors purchase such prints, and accept the defects, just because they are "new product" on Super 8?

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Fabrizio Mosca
Master Film Handler

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From: Milano, Italy
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 - posted May 03, 2014 01:52 PM      Profile for Fabrizio Mosca   Email Fabrizio Mosca   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I screened my copy last week (never screened before since I bought) and I have to say that the sound is not so bad with my ST1200.
Even with the soft focus I found it quite enjoyable (ok... I'm a Beatles' fan [Smile] ).

As far as I'm concerned, I bought it when it came out and before a review was published both in Cine8-16 and in Film Collector. Maybe if I had read the review before, I wouldn't have bought it new and I would have waited for a used print

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Michael O'Regan
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From: Essex, UK
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 - posted May 03, 2014 01:56 PM      Profile for Michael O'Regan   Email Michael O'Regan   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
As far as I'm concerned, I bought it when it came out and before a review was published both in Cine8-16 and in Film Collector. Maybe if I had read the review before, I wouldn't have bought it
That's what I was referring to.
I think sometimes collectors tend to buy anything in the excitement of buying new S8 product, regardless of quality.
This is not conducive to the dealers putting out quality prints.

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Winbert Hutahaean
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From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
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 - posted May 03, 2014 06:23 PM      Profile for Winbert Hutahaean     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:

I think sometimes collectors tend to buy anything in the excitement of buying new S8 product, regardless of quality.
This is not conducive to the dealers putting out quality prints.

This title could sell well because of the Beatles factor. Everything is related to this group would be the interest of many people. Should this defect happen to Captain America, no one would buy it, if it was known before.

--------------------
Winbert

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Alan Rik
Film God

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From: New York City, NY, USA
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 - posted May 04, 2014 01:44 AM      Profile for Alan Rik   Email Alan Rik   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have OCD when it comes to prints! I tried to get past it but every time I watched a reel my eyes would gravitate towards the bottom of the screen...
If I paid full price for the new print I would have sent it back with that defect. In fact I got it used and I still sent it back.

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Tom Photiou
Film God

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From: Plymouth U.K
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 - posted May 04, 2014 03:02 AM      Profile for Tom Photiou     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Alan, im the same with fault marks, on another thread it was asked if we would be happy to pay,(for example, the Captain America release length), over £250.00 for a new release of 600ft, the answer is simply How could I justify that price tag, I think If I bought this Beatles feature and it had this fault within the print I could not accept it.
Its also one of the reasons I now only buy the lower end market i.e. trailers, shorts etc. A feature now would have to be a title I really want so much and it would have to be a reasonable price after all, we now see so many faded prints coming along.
I really would very much love to buy the new 007 pre title sequence but I ask again,(and bare in mind I am a cine film lover through and through),how can I justify with my household budget, £75 for around 12-15 minutes of an old movie?
I imagine these Beatles prints to be several hundreds and they have a built in fault [Frown] [Confused]
Back in the better days it was easier to buy films as the dealers used to allow you to purchase them over three or six months but these schemes all died a death.
Obviously as I have said before, there is and always has been, like all hobby's, a wealthy element to whom price is not an issue, however, in the real world super 8 new releases are pretty much well out of reach to the average chap, if my 6 lotto numbers ever come up then it'll be a visit to all the dealers and buy everything I want,
[Big Grin] [Wink]

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Dominique De Bast
Film God

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From: Brussels, Belgium
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 - posted May 04, 2014 04:37 AM      Profile for Dominique De Bast   Email Dominique De Bast   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It is difficult to justify a big default on a new print, especially at the prices asked nowadays.

--------------------
Dominique

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Winbert Hutahaean
Film God

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From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
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 - posted May 04, 2014 04:50 AM      Profile for Winbert Hutahaean     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
how can I justify with my household budget, £75 for around 12-15 minutes of an old movie?
That is the price of any hobbies that collectors will deal with. A wine collector will spend $2000 for a bottle of wine, VW collectors will pay hundreds dollard for an orifginal door handle, etc, etc.

I don't think we can compare the price we spend for our hobby with the cost of normal life... [Big Grin]

[ May 04, 2014, 09:56 AM: Message edited by: Winbert Hutahaean ]

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Winbert

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Michael O'Regan
Film God

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From: Essex, UK
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 - posted May 04, 2014 12:25 PM      Profile for Michael O'Regan   Email Michael O'Regan   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Wouldn't the dealer have known there was going to be this defect in the print? If so, why print it, when there's a chance it won't be acceptable to collectors?
If the print came back from the printers like this, why was it not returned by the dealer, again, when there's a chance that collectors won't accept it?
Or, am I missing something?

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Dominique De Bast
Film God

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From: Brussels, Belgium
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 - posted May 04, 2014 12:46 PM      Profile for Dominique De Bast   Email Dominique De Bast   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Your questions are logical, Michael.

--------------------
Dominique

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James N. Savage 3
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: Washington, DC
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 - posted May 05, 2014 07:07 AM      Profile for James N. Savage 3     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Winburt you hit the nail on the HEAD!! [Wink]

Collectors of any "special interest" items never make sense to people who don't have a passion for that particular hobby (i.e. model train collectors, book collectors, etc.), so we can't talk prices in a way that would make sense to the average Joe on any of this.

With that said, with this particular type of defect on a new print, it appears to be a flaw at the actual film lab, and not on the film negative itself (but not 100% sure on this). If thats the case, it seems that the prints could have just been returned to the lab by the customer (CHC?), who would then re-print the films at no additional cost.

I don't know any particulars on the business end of this, but that seems like the normal chain of events for this type of thing.

But to end on a high note, this problem seems to be isolated to this one particular movie/film, because every print I have bought from CHC/REEL IMAGE over the last few years have been BEAUTIFUL prints with very good sound, so I look forward to see what's next [Cool]

James.

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Dominique De Bast
Film God

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From: Brussels, Belgium
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 - posted May 05, 2014 11:36 AM      Profile for Dominique De Bast   Email Dominique De Bast   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Winbert and James, you are right about the fact that in many cases a collection costs too much for those who are not collectors themselves. But I think there is a specificity with films : the quick raise of the prices. We all remember that some years ago, when many people rushed to video, they were happy to resell their equipment and films for a song. It is no longer like this and we have to admitt that it is now difficult to buy a good projector and a suffisiant number of films (to be able to project on a regular basis) if you haven't a good budget. Imagine a young collector starting a collection...Most of us have equipment and films for a long time but could you rebuy your collection at nowdays'prices ? I couldn't. I like also to shoot on film (9,5 and super 8) but it has become very very expensive these last years. I will keep on filming as long as I can but I am afraid that the cost of the filmstock will prevent almost anyone who could have been intersted in shooting on film for the first time. When I shoot with a 9,5 or a super 8 camera, people come often to talk to me, most of the time to say they have a camera at home. When I suggest them to use it again, I always get the same answer : too expensive.

--------------------
Dominique

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Lee Mannering
Film God

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From: The Projection Box
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 - posted May 07, 2014 03:11 AM      Profile for Lee Mannering     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yes Classic do receive answer prints. As far as I am aware if you check the reels they come on you should see a little circular sticker which dictates if it’s a release print or answer copy.

The lab recently stripped down the printer for refurb we were told and judging by the latest recent releases I find them perfect. Never seen the Beatles 8mm print but from the pictures looks like some sort of optical fault probably captured on the negative?

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