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Topic: Bit of a strange one

Nigel Higgins
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 543
From: Saffron walden.united kingdom
Registered: Jun 2014

posted August 11, 2014 12:32 PM

Hi, bit of a strange one here does anyone know anything about this washttp://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/221518583154?ssPageName=STRK:MESINDXX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1436.l2649 it some kind of test film ????,also is this someone on here whos selling it ??

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted August 11, 2014 01:18 PM

Yeah, I took a look at it Nigel but at 18fps and silent, I have no idea of it's origins??

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Pasquale DAlessio
Film God

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From: Bristol,RI, USA
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posted August 11, 2014 01:38 PM

Interesting auction. It has great color. I wonder if it is striped?

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted August 11, 2014 01:50 PM

If you look at the picture of the reel in the lower left there is a couple of inches of film laying on the case, looking unstriped.

Derann had The Lion King as 4x600, and Simba looks young in all the pictures. Maybe this is some fragment of Reel #1 that died young and wound up on the used list cheap or maybe a freebie for a customer.

I have the last 350(ish) Feet of "Grease" under similar circumstances (just the carnival and Olivia Newton John in that ...outfit!! Oh! -and the credits...I vaguely remember John Travolta as well.), but mine showed up striped and recorded.

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted August 11, 2014 02:30 PM

There is no stripe on the film.

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted August 11, 2014 02:50 PM

I'm thinking there was some mishap before they got to striping and recording and rather than tossing it in the bin they sent it out as is.

Unless it's some pirated print (post 1994?) it definitely started out at Derann.

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted August 11, 2014 03:03 PM

Steve, i don't see how it can possibly be anything to do with Derann as it runs at it's correct running speed at 18fps. No Derann prints were ever printed to run at 18fps that I know of and if you read the opening page of any of their catalogues it clearly states that ALL films distributed by them run at 24fps. It sure is a strange one that's for sure.

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

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From: Bristol. United Kingdom
Registered: Oct 2007

posted August 11, 2014 03:17 PM

Here's a link, you can also see other films for sale :-
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/221518583154?ru=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fsch%2Fi.html%3F_ipg%3D100%26_sadis%3D15%26_ftrv%3D1%26_sop%3D12%26_dmd%3D1%26_ftrt%3D901%26_sacat%3D0%26_fro

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Maurice

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

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From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted August 11, 2014 03:18 PM

Is it 18FPS because there is a document with it specifying 18FPS, or is it 18FPS because the seller believes that's what you're supposed to project silent films at?

(Without sound, would it really make that much of a difference?)

I'm thinking Derann because they had exclusive Super-8 distribution rights from Disney, including this feature.

For this not to be a Derann print it would have to be some kind of pirate print. Why would anybody pirate a silent super-8 print of part of a movie they could get on VHS and very shortly DVD?

Derann's goofs did crop up on the used lists here and there at reduced prices.

Other possibility is that this a relic from early printing tests.

There have been super-8 cartridge based cranked toys (Derann printed many of the films for those too.), but this beast is pushing 20 minutes long. What kid has that kind of stamina or attention span?

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted August 11, 2014 03:25 PM

From inquiry it's correct running speed is 18fps. Therefore if you had it striped you would then have to obviously record the sound at 18fps. Unless you were happy to have it as a stand alone novelty, it would be useless to join to any other odd reels of the feature anyone may happen to have.

Also I am fairly certain Derann were not producing film for "toys" in this era Steve, maybe 20 odd years earlier perhaps but not in the 90's.

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

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From: Long Island, NY, USA
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posted August 11, 2014 03:41 PM

Let's forget about The Lion King for a second and talk about Jurassic Park.

In that movie they discussed Occam's Razor: how the simplest explanation for a phenomenon most often works out to be the truth.

Here we have:

Unique one-off 18FPS Super-8 pirated print of a film already existing as a 24FPS negative legally at Derann made in the 1990s several years after almost everyone had give up on Super-8. (Who?, Why?)

-or-

It's a piece of scrap from Derann.

I know what Occam is telling me here.

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted August 11, 2014 03:49 PM

Yes Steve, what you are saying is of course, a possibility, however the fact remains that to most of us, apart from the novelty aspect, the film remains fairly useless as a "working print" to splice in. Certainly from my perspective it is anyhow.

Also Steve, Derann was very much in a mini boom regarding it's Super 8mm dept around the time they were releasing all their most sought after later titles in the very late 80's to mid 90's whilst Derek was still around. The Disney contract really raised the profile and interest in Derann again as I recall, even though Derek was not a big fan of such films himself.

Now what Andreas has just posted on the other hand,is a real unique decent find to someone like me!

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Panayotis A. Carayannis
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From: Athens,Greece
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posted August 12, 2014 02:34 AM

My guess. Simply an unstripped or,without sound piece of film that the guy thought "..since it is silent,it must be run at 18 fps" (!!!)

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Nigel Higgins
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 543
From: Saffron walden.united kingdom
Registered: Jun 2014

posted August 12, 2014 10:32 AM

Yes i thought might be some kind of test film to see how pictre quality was ,didnt derann add the sound themselves ,only thing if truely does run at 18 fps then that is strange and adds to the mystery .

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

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From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted August 12, 2014 11:09 AM

Derann usually received their film unstriped from an external lab double-run and 16mm wide. They then slit it to two 8mm prints, striped it and recorded it.

What's neat is if you can find a print of Lee Mannering's "Cinema in Miniature", you can see Derek Simmons doing this.

I'd like to know how it's been established that this is really meant to be 18FPS. Is there some set of instructions with it? Is there a printed label on the case?

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Nigel Higgins
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 543
From: Saffron walden.united kingdom
Registered: Jun 2014

posted August 12, 2014 11:30 AM

I would like to see lees film ,and i think this is from derann source as cant see anyone risking a pirate copy or anything like that because of the costs and all the work involved and like you say would be on 16mm split down the middle to make 2 copies ,im tempted to bid on it if only to find out the truth behind it and im now curious of the content as in which part of the film and if its truly 18fps it would be about 30 mins ish long instead of about 16-18 at 24fps ,lee if you read this how do i get hold of your film ,thanks

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Winbert Hutahaean
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From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
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posted August 12, 2014 11:32 AM

quote:

Also I am fairly certain Derann were not producing film for "toys" in this era Steve, maybe 20 odd years earlier perhaps but not in the 90's.

No, that is not true.

New toys with 8mm film inside

quote:
You are bidding on a portable Action Replay Player and Keyring with 4 8mm film cartridges. Batman Returns, Terminator 2, Schillaci & Platt and Crazy World Of Home Movies. In full working order. Happy Bidding!

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Winbert

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

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From: Long Island, NY, USA
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posted August 12, 2014 11:38 AM

I think Steve Osborne at the Reel Image sells "Cinema in Miniature", which means you can probably get it through Classic Home Cinema too.

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Nigel Higgins
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 543
From: Saffron walden.united kingdom
Registered: Jun 2014

posted August 12, 2014 11:38 AM

I can see where youre coming from here wimbert but the film in question here is a 400ft reel so diffrent to the toy films above .

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Winbert Hutahaean
Film God

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From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
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posted August 12, 2014 11:43 AM

Nigel, If this is really 18fps, what I can guess before they put the film into that cartridge they have a long version film first before deciding which part to be included. While at the same time they can check on picture quality.

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Winbert

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Nigel Higgins
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 543
From: Saffron walden.united kingdom
Registered: Jun 2014

posted August 12, 2014 12:00 PM

Winbert sorry for spelling your name wrong before .yes is true makes this a rare item then worth seeing what it sells for ,thanks for help.

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
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posted August 12, 2014 12:21 PM

If I could get it cheap enough (Ebay says "may not ship to the US") I'd grab it just out of curiosity.

There's a lot that can be learned just by looking at it closely. Does it begin with the head unspliced, or spliced? If spliced it means something is missing. If not it is the way it's supposed to be. How does it end? Are the scenes in the order of the original film or does it skip some?

The frame rate you'd need the DVD,some measurements and a little patience. If it's 18FPS time in seconds would translate to time times three inches of film. If it's 24 it would be time times four inches. You'd just need to find two events about 10 seconds apart that would be obvious on the print. (beginning and ending of a scene would be good.)

I would think if it's a digest of some kind it would jump around more, but Simba seems to be uniformly young.

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Nigel Higgins
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 543
From: Saffron walden.united kingdom
Registered: Jun 2014

posted August 20, 2014 12:23 PM

Ok i won the auction on this one and it turned up today still a bit of a strange one ,film starts from the bit where scar is telling hyenas to go after simba and ends about half way through the acuma matarter song ,it does indeed play at 18fps colour is good but there seems to be some lab marks every so often ,about 20 mins of film here has a front leader and is marked up as reel 2 ,has no tail leader ends all of a sudden ,has is this reel 2 fronm the feature ?? does it start in the right place ??

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted August 20, 2014 04:54 PM

I still have no idea what to make of this print Nigel given that you have now confirmed it's correct running speed is 18fps. It's a total mystery to me but no doubt a nice watch if it is of Derann official release quality. Are you thinking of having it striped Nigel?

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Winbert Hutahaean
Film God

Posts: 5468
From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
Registered: Jun 2003

posted August 20, 2014 07:54 PM

Could it be a reversal print?

(ps: remember some years ago, Italians did this a lot of time by using 35mm positive print they "hired" from the cinema)

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Winbert

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