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Author Topic: Kindest projector to Film?
Marshall Crist
Master Film Handler

Posts: 300
From: San Pedro, CA USA
Registered: Oct 2008


 - posted June 03, 2015 08:06 AM      Profile for Marshall Crist   Email Marshall Crist   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I recently picked up an Elmo ST 180-E to replace my horrible Bell & Howell, and I think I have made a horrible mistake.

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted June 03, 2015 11:06 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
You will have to decide for yourself Marshall however this is not new news on Elmo machines either here or anywhere else for that matter.

Lots of alternatives to Elmo so as said, never give up on your film collection nor loose faith in projecting real film.

Just take a look into the many past threads on here and I am certain you will be able to make some great decisions on what to project your precious collection with Marshall [Smile] i

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Alan Rik
Film God

Posts: 2211
From: New York City, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted June 03, 2015 11:44 AM      Profile for Alan Rik   Email Alan Rik   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
So far the only machines that have scratched my films is.. I hate to say it.. one or two of my old GS machines. And a Sankyo S800. And of course my trusty crummy Chinon 4100.
But the Bauers,The Eumig S940, the Beaulieu, and the current GS are really nice and are scratch free.

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted June 03, 2015 12:31 PM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
You did well Rik getting the Mk 3 GS1200 [Wink]

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Marshall Crist
Master Film Handler

Posts: 300
From: San Pedro, CA USA
Registered: Oct 2008


 - posted June 03, 2015 06:18 PM      Profile for Marshall Crist   Email Marshall Crist   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Andrew, I appreciate your optimism, but I purchased the Elmo thinking I was getting a fine machine. Currently I have three projectors, and I suspect them all of mutilating prints. All told, probably about $3k worth. To be honest, I can't point to any reason to stay in hobby other than "sunk cost fallacy." This has been a money pit for me, and very, very depressing.

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted June 03, 2015 08:22 PM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
I am extremely sorry to hear that you are in a real bad place with the hobby Marshall.

I must say i was surprised to hear of the model you selected given your previous experiences and subsequent knowledge gained from these unfortunate circumstances.

Everyone has different views and experiences on each machine out there it has to be said, but having said all of that if you simply have to edge your bets on a machine to give you the very best chance of keeping your films in tip top shape, then i would have to take the majority opinion of what is best to use and then get the best example of one of those machines that i could find.

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Marshall Crist
Master Film Handler

Posts: 300
From: San Pedro, CA USA
Registered: Oct 2008


 - posted June 03, 2015 10:39 PM      Profile for Marshall Crist   Email Marshall Crist   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Couldn't agree more. Unfortunately, I thought I'd done that.

Sounds like I need a Eumig 938. Is that a 600' capacity or just 400'?

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Alan Rik
Film God

Posts: 2211
From: New York City, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted June 04, 2015 02:58 AM      Profile for Alan Rik   Email Alan Rik   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Marshall, are you purchasing these machines sight unseen? The reason I ask is that many projectors, even the great ones can scratch and chew if they are not kept up properly or have had a hard life. The exterior says a lot about its history.
I try to buy the cleanest, least used machine possible. If I can get one that is mint.. that is the one I choose. I may have to pay a little bit more money but in the long run its worth it I think.
I had a few Elmo ST180's and found them very gentle on film. They sold so many of that unit that I've had a few that were in mint almost unused condition.
I had a pretty worn in Sankyo S800. Normally very gentle on film. And that one put a long green scratch on my copy of "The Snowman" for around 20 ft or so.
I hope you stick with the hobby and find a nice machine. They are out there!

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted June 04, 2015 03:05 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
As ever, fabulous advice Rik!

One thing I would like to add though is, IMHO a well loved,maintained and cared for well used machine can often outweigh the benefits of a long stored non used "as new" machine.

You just have to make sure this is genuinely the case by asking for receipts of service history, parts purchased and fitted etc etc.

Just the same principle as buying a much cherished used car really.

I certainly would not be put off buying say a well used Bauer T610 if the owner was selling it with spare brand new parts like cam lobe, magnetic head and guides for example.
These are typically the only parts that ever seen to need replacing as the motors are extremely good on these I've found.

BTW Marshall,

The Eumig S938 takes 800ft spools. [Smile]
Check the mag head on both tracks before committing, otherwise these are a lovely and kind machine in use.
Even better if you follow in Paul's footsteps and fit an even better lens.
I am certain you would be delighted with one of these in decent shape. [Smile]

[ June 04, 2015, 04:20 AM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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David Roberts
Master Film Handler

Posts: 405
From: Suffolk. England
Registered: Apr 2004


 - posted June 04, 2015 09:04 AM      Profile for David Roberts     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Marshall,
ive been there! about half my films now have 2 green dots,one above the other along entire length of film,drives you mad when showing them. this was caused by 2 st1200"s,both of which I thought well maintained. they are now in the garage,and I have a bauer t 60 and 502. if you can find one of these,or a 600 series,its all you need.
german e bay have these often. I paid about £50 for the 502,and its restored my faith in the hobby.

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Steve Carter
Master Film Handler

Posts: 282
From: Bristol, UK
Registered: Apr 2015


 - posted June 04, 2015 09:58 AM      Profile for Steve Carter     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I love my 35 year old DCT, I previously had the DCM & DCR for a short time, but got the DCT for the 150w lamp, 800ft reel capacity plus twin track with stereo capability through the two monitor outs ...

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted June 04, 2015 02:17 PM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
I think with any projector, just as with cars, one careful owner from new really helps

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Marshall Crist
Master Film Handler

Posts: 300
From: San Pedro, CA USA
Registered: Oct 2008


 - posted June 04, 2015 08:55 PM      Profile for Marshall Crist   Email Marshall Crist   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Great news about the 800' capacity on the Eumig 938. I will keep an eye open for one, but I can't imagine it will be easy to find a good one. What is the capacity on the Bauer T610? It sounds like these two machines should be at the top of my list.

Man, I would love to be able to put my 2x400'ers on a single reel.

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Alan Rik
Film God

Posts: 2211
From: New York City, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted June 05, 2015 12:50 AM      Profile for Alan Rik   Email Alan Rik   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If you can find a Bauer T610 or 510 you will be stunned at how nice the picture is, how full and round the audio is, and really how quiet the unit is. It is the only projector I have never heard. Literally! I have had 3 of them in the past...everytime I let one go I wish I had them back.

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Edwin van Eck
Master Film Handler

Posts: 312
From: Tilburg, Netherlands
Registered: Feb 2015


 - posted June 05, 2015 01:19 AM      Profile for Edwin van Eck   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Here you can find some very nice projectors for sale:
http://shop.van-eck.net/film-projectors/p-1a/
E.g. currently Bauer T502, T520, Braun Visacustic 2000.

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Edwin van Eck
Van Eck Video Services

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted June 05, 2015 02:29 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Importing one from the Netherlands from Edwin or from someone in Germany would probably be about your only chance of getting a Bauer Studio line projector in the U.S. I would have thought Marshall.

Probably the best person to speak to regarding this would be Alan Rik. He has owned at least three of these machines so perhaps he could advise you where to buy them in the U.S. if he didn't import his?

They were really only ever distributed in Europe from what I can gather and even then, mainly in Germany and Austria it would seem. There was very little advertising for them here in the UK when I look back in old Movie Maker Magazines.

It would be expensive to transport to the U.S. and parts would be difficult to come by without shopping online in the European zone, but though an expensive outlay to begin with, it would definitely be your last projector that you would ever want to own given your past experiences.

As spares you would need to purchase at the very least one magnetic head, the cam and follower 3d copy parts from Edwin and preferably the removable pressure plate that can wear over time.

If you invested in all of the above plus have the knowledge to fit the cam and follower and be able to set up the claw again correctly after fitting the above, you would have a projector for life that you could trust implicitly.

The spare electronics pack that Edwin sells is another useful investment and of course the service items like the Molycote grease and silicone oil for maintaining the cam and follower.

If you did decide to take the plunge, in your position I would only choose a T610 so that you will never be left wondering what extras you would be missing out on.
For this level of one off investment, you may as well opt for the top of the range model if you are going to go for it.

I am also a big fan of the "Transportkoffer" for these, which is a superb hard storage and travel case specifically for just these machines.
It protects them superbly and houses two 800ft Schneider reels and cans as well as a storage pouch for all of cables and care accessories.

Your set up then would look something like this Marshall (minus the ext speakers of course):-

 -

Then if your were to add a long play unit, your projector could be used to show complete feature length films in one run just as this shows, if you wished to do so:-

 -

The S938 really would be far easier for you to find in the U.S. I would have thought Marshall.

They are both lovely machines whichever you decide upon

here is the S938

 -

and again in use with a long play system for complete feature films:-
 -

[ June 05, 2015, 05:14 AM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Alan Rik
Film God

Posts: 2211
From: New York City, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted June 05, 2015 09:01 AM      Profile for Alan Rik   Email Alan Rik   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yes all the Bauer T610's that I have come across have been purchased overseas with the exception of 2. My first T610 came from a dealer here, the 3rd one from Ebay US. But they are pretty hard to come by here in the states. More common is the Bauer T600 but those machines have hum in the soundtrack so not as good in the audio department.
I think the only defect I have seen on those machines is the claw that can wear out and in my case it was on one of the 3 I owned. The others were perfect.
The Bauer T510 is also a great choice and unless he intends to re-record (much harder here in the states due to our 29.97 FPS running speed)is almost identical to the T610. All he would need is to upgrade the lens to the 1.1 if he wanted to.
Ordering from Germany really is not bad in terms of shipping prices. Normally around $60. From the UK is much higher.
I have purchased many items from Ebay Germany.

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David Roberts
Master Film Handler

Posts: 405
From: Suffolk. England
Registered: Apr 2004


 - posted June 05, 2015 10:22 AM      Profile for David Roberts     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I agree that a 500 series is still worth going for,same basic mechanism as the 600"s,there is some hum on the sound,but I don't find this too bad when showing a film.
I have fitted my 502 with the f1.1 lens,and I don't think you could wish for much more for home use.

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted June 05, 2015 02:52 PM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
The 510, as Alan says is close to the 610 in terms of facilities. The 525 is also a good machine if Duo Play is ok for your needs.

The ones to avoid are the older ac driven machines 500, 600 etc.

The difference is the mechanical lever to change the projector
speed as opposed to the little electronic switch placed at the front lower right hand side of the machine on the desirable electronic DC driven machines named above.

I have both the f1.2 and f1.1 lens for mine but David was right to get a f1.1 lens for his, it is a far nicer lens in use and very sharp crisp images are obtained from it.

Another massive plus for me with the Bauer Studio machines is the ease in which you can remove the Magnetic Head for cleaning, inspection or even replacement purposes. (Only wish the same method had been adopted by Beaulieu!)

They have a plug in terminal block which makes any of the above work an absolute breeze if like me, this is something you like to pay extreme attention to.
It is the machine of choice for any recording work because of both the above reason and the fact that due to the electronic D.C. drive, it stays close to synchronous speed throughout the duration of 600ft of film minimum once you have found it's actual precise running speed.

[ June 06, 2015, 04:54 PM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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David Roberts
Master Film Handler

Posts: 405
From: Suffolk. England
Registered: Apr 2004


 - posted June 06, 2015 05:10 AM      Profile for David Roberts     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Andrew,
whats the procedure for head removal on these,i have a 502.

regards.

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted June 06, 2015 07:05 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
I am not sure if yours is the same David as I have never seen a 502 in the flesh but if it is there should be a tiny spring steel strip that buckles over the top of the magnetic head.
It is held down by two tiny m2 screws that require a straight bladed instrumentation screwdriver to fit them correctly or else the heads can easily be damaged.

Once the screws are removed and spring steel retainer has been removed also, you can then simply lift the plastic connection block from the magnetic heads and remove each of them.

It's a very simple procedure with the lamp removed and one I do every few hours of use.

A tip I would recommend you follow is to cover the base where the slider controls are with a cloth or a piece of kitchen towel and I also use a magnetic screwdriver to ensure the tiny screws don't drop during removal and refitting.

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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David Roberts
Master Film Handler

Posts: 405
From: Suffolk. England
Registered: Apr 2004


 - posted June 06, 2015 08:37 AM      Profile for David Roberts     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks for that Andrew. can I also ask,my 502 has the electronic speed change switch,does this mean its a dc motor? I must say there is some hum on playback,but I don't find this an issue.

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted June 06, 2015 11:13 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Yes David if it has an electrical switch rather than a mechanical pulley changing lever, it will be a. DC motor being driven precisely by an electronic controller.

I will have to look at your model again but I was under the impression it was the old style Bauer with the A.C. drive and mechanical changeover lever?

Had a look David, and yes sorry, you are quite right yours is a dc drive arrangement duo play type machine.

Even the T610 can give off a little hum from the large transformer if the soundtrack is recorded low but if a soundtrack has been re recorded on it, aiming for 0db where possible, the sound is sensational when slaved

[ June 06, 2015, 04:57 PM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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