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Author Topic: Beaulieu Stereo Mag Head Wiring Verification
Andrew Woodcock
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From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted June 23, 2015 08:31 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
I will be looking to replace my Magnetic Heads shortly on my Beaulieu 708el CD Stereo.

I have already several of these to replace them with.

for those that have done this work and purchased the magnetic heads from Wittners or from other sources, please study the following photographs and let me know please if you can answer my set of questions after the photographs please.

 -

Then an inverted photograph just to give a better view of the points I am raising:-

 -

and now the replacement type heads:-

 -

and another view:-

 -

Looking at my first two photographs it is clear to see that the cable entry into the Woelke 464 Mag Heads is "clustered" or grouped together. The cables then disappear inside the head shell without being able to tell which colour cable goes to which terminal on the magnetic head.

On the new type heads that are fitted to the Bauer Studio Line projectors, the cables go to a plastic socket which just plugs into the terminals on the Magnetic Heads as seen in the last two photographs.

So here are my questions:-
1/ What do the Markings at the end of the Woelke 464 coding stand for or mean?
There are "SA", "RS" "RK" and "R" variants from what I have seen.

2/ The cables are coloured Red, White, Black & Yellow
Please can someone use my lower two photographs to identify which terminal lugs receive each of the coloured cables with the Woelke 464 logo to the front of the magnetic head as fitted?

Any help, as always will be gratefully received thanks.

I would of course, be asking these questions to Wittners also ordinarily but unfortunately they are currently closed while away on holiday.

[ June 25, 2015, 08:20 AM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]

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Steve Carter
Master Film Handler

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From: Bristol, UK
Registered: Apr 2015


 - posted June 23, 2015 02:04 PM      Profile for Steve Carter     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
That's a different sound-head configuration Andrew, with the heads at the bottom, rather than the heads at top with pressure plates below...I watched a video of this projector to see it in action, very nice indeed...

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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From: Manchester Uk
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 - posted June 23, 2015 02:20 PM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Yes Steve it is opposite to all other machines i have ever used. Works well thoigh for cleaning purposes etc.

Just need someone with some answers now hopefully.

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Andrew Woodcock
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From: Manchester Uk
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 - posted June 24, 2015 11:51 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Anyone? Surely someone has changed a head out on one of these before now? [Roll Eyes]

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Kevin Clark
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From: Bapchild, Kent, UK
Registered: May 2004


 - posted June 24, 2015 12:26 PM      Profile for Kevin Clark     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hello Andrew

To be honest I was surprised to see you needed to change the heads. I have owned three Beaulieaus in the past and the heads were never a problem.

Are you replacing them to cure a specific sound replay or recording fault?

Kevin

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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From: Manchester Uk
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 - posted June 25, 2015 02:45 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Hello again Kevin and thanks for the info, much appreciated.

I am quite surprised to hear from owning three of these, that you've never needed to change a head.

Mine is still ok for the time being, but on certain films, there is a definite difference in the upper frequency range on the narrow track 2 vs the main stripe on track 1.

I've experienced the very same thing on the Bauers after time and as you know, these use the same Magnetic Heads.

I've replaced the worn ones in the Bauers some time ago now and the difference is clear.
While I cannot justify taking the Beaulieu heads out just yet, I feel it's something I need to prepare for and therefore I have replacement heads ready to be fitted for when the time comes.

I am just needing the information in preparation for when that time comes and was hoping someone here would have done the work in the past and could therefore answer my questions.

If I am flying solo on this one, I will try and get my answers from Wittners when they are back from holiday.

Nice to hear from you again Kevin and take care pal [Wink]

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Steve Carter
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 - posted June 25, 2015 04:24 AM      Profile for Steve Carter     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Andrew have you tried demagnetizing the heads, when I was using 8 track studio tape machines, I had to do this quite regularly, it does make a difference to top end, and as you say it's only the balance stripe head, it makes me think of this, as they are both getting equal wear, just a thought...

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Maurizio Di Cintio
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From: Ortona, Italy
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 - posted June 25, 2015 12:50 PM      Profile for Maurizio Di Cintio     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Steve, the balance track wears out faster than track 1; also, because track 2 is so close to sprocket, any ondulation of the stripe area will cause faulty recordings/playback after wearing has started on these, because proper head to stripe contact will become next to impossible to achieve, as wear increases.

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Maurizio

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Andrew Woodcock
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From: Manchester Uk
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 - posted June 25, 2015 12:58 PM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks Steve, yes I do do this periodically but in this case, it is the beginnings of wear I'm afraid.

I've had these same symptoms on at least two other occasions on these heads and it is typical of what happens on nearly all Stereo Magnetic Super 8 heads, where the balance does wear much quicker than the main just because it is far narrower and therefore has a far smaller overall surface area on the balance track side to the one on the main track 1 side and also as Maurizio points out, the fact that it's close to the drive sprocket on the balance track side.

On these, it does seemingly, take many years of use to manifest but as my machines do get quite a lot of use in a relatively short period of time, it's only to be expected that my machines will need replacement heads and maybe even motors from time to time.

I've been lucky so far however, ive still to change any motors on either of my Bauer machines or the Beaulieu

--------------------------------------------------

...................................................................

Maurizio, do you have the answers to any of the questions above?

Ironically I was running the Bauer briefly this morning and it suddenly struck me that the erase head on the T610's has the same coloured wiring to its head, not the 464's, just the erase head.
From back(main)left to right, to front (balance) left to right, it goes... White, Red, Yellow, Black.

I am hoping this is a standard as the wiring colours are identical and therefore I'm also hoping its the same format as used on the Beaulieu Woelke 464 heads?

Hopefully all will be revealed soon, including information regarding the last letter codes printed on the heads.

[ June 25, 2015, 05:05 PM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]

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Phil Murat
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 - posted July 25, 2016 01:15 AM      Profile for Phil Murat   Email Phil Murat   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
High Andrew,

I have replaced Main Head , a long time ago, 25 Years, on the "Older" Stereo 708, for a one offering same technical feature (BOGEN?) , so what, it was not necessary to make adjustment on the Electronic Sound Card.

In a same operation , I renew the Nylon head skates and I noticed uneven wear for these.
Moreover, I assume it is very important to install new skates associated with a new head as a set ( Like when you replace brake discs on car always with new shoe-pads systematicaly)and controling the contact pressure too.

Also, some Super 8 movies "Low Cost" categories (Hefa, Piccolo,etc...), showing irregular Mag Strip (Liquid Strip Origin ?) are terrible for heads (And film path too).

Did You keep the former head and observed the wear shape with a magnifying lens?

Was the wear slightly offset ?

Let me know......

Phil

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Andrew Woodcock
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From: Manchester Uk
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 - posted July 25, 2016 02:19 PM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Hi again Phil.

It's still hanging in there Phil thanks.
It did show symptoms of deterioration on the balance side of the head fairly soon after I got the machine running correctly in the early days, but since, it hasn't gone any worse at all.

I have everything to hand for when the time is right and I will have this head re profiled to extend its life as a spare, but for the meantime, it still performs satisfactory.

I also have,and will obtain more of the vital nylon pressers you speak of.
I agree that both should be changed out when a new head is fitted to ensure the very best contact between stripe and head tracks.

Many of the balance tracks are so narrow when pasted in places and misaligned, I've found you can really only judge the heads performance fairly by using with a known decent recording made on a pre striped stock film to gauge whether or not the balance side of any mag head, is performing adequately, or indeed in need of changing.

I am still unsure of the wiring configuration to each of the four pins on the head, so any help and information on this,I'd be most grateful for Phil to use as reference in the future sometime. [Smile]

Also Phil, I've so far never been able to find out what the different variant lettering on the heads themselves mean.

I.e. SA, Rk, R, RS etc

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Phil Murat
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 - posted July 25, 2016 02:35 PM      Profile for Phil Murat   Email Phil Murat   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Andrew,

Well, I think there are many thing to develop around the Head Subject.....

I am away for many days from now, but I 'll Check what I did .....25 years ago !!!!
I kept the former head, as I was thinking reprofiling was possible.

If this is the case this is a great new.......
There is a procedure in Beaulieu service Manual to set the head to the sound card for 708 EL mono (To get the max performances).
That needs electric measures (If I remember), unfortunately, this is far from my knowledges at this time.

An other subject to follow......

Phil

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Andrew Woodcock
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From: Manchester Uk
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 - posted July 25, 2016 02:53 PM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Yes indeed, and as said any information on those head code references or wiring colours to each of the pins...
I am all ears.

Otherwise come the time, I'd have to sabotage a perfectly good rubber gromit going into the head shell, to find out for certain. [Wink]

There are several companies here in the UK that can and will still re profile magnetic heads Phil.
They also send you back a test report for each head after their work.

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Andrew Woodcock
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From: Manchester Uk
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 - posted July 27, 2016 05:39 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Nice to see recently Wittner's (Beaulieu.de), are now adding even more spare parts for these fine machines, to their range!

I noticed recently these include the rear cover, something someone here was trying to find a year or so back, as well as erase heads etc etc.

Well done Wittners!

Keep up the good work. [Smile]

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Steven J Kirk
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 - posted July 27, 2016 03:27 PM      Profile for Steven J Kirk   Email Steven J Kirk   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Including heads, even the erase head:

http://www.beaulieu.de/pages/s8_wzub1.php?rubr=s8_wzub1

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VistaVision
Motion Picture High-Fidelity

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Andrew Woodcock
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From: Manchester Uk
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 - posted July 27, 2016 04:13 PM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
It's just great I think that you can still get hold of all of these brand new essential parts.

I've got video projectors made 25yrs later that now run totally unsupported by their manufacturers.

Beaulieu may have sold the lot to Daniel, but they certainly knew how to look after their customers with the necessary spares!☺☺

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Maurizio Di Cintio
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 - posted August 16, 2016 01:25 PM      Profile for Maurizio Di Cintio     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi, Andrew. I am sorry only now I have seen your questions which you addressed to me as regards contact wiring.

Unfortunately I wouldn't have been able to answer, perhaps it might be possible to determine which wire is which with some trial and error practice, once detached from the original head. If you touch one of these wires unconnected to a head, you will get a very harsh noise from the loudspeaker: check on the vu-meters and there you go. Not very professional - I know - but I have no other idea at this point.
PLUS.... the good news is one day I might have this same problem: I have just cut a deal for purchasing one of these fine projectors (supposedly in very good working order - I hope it's actually the case) and I am eager to grab its main selector knob [Big Grin]
By the way, where can I download an Italian or English manual for the 708 Stereo?

Oh, yes the lettering on the sound heads... Do not know for sure but the "SA" designation might stand for Sendust Alloy: at least this is the case with Elmo's head... But this is just a guess. Perhaps some French or German member might clarify, hopefully.

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Maurizio

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Andrew Woodcock
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From: Manchester Uk
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 - posted August 17, 2016 02:30 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Great news Maurizio regarding your latest acquisition! I'm certain it will become a firm favourite of yours in no time. [Wink]

Good news also then, surrounding the sound heads, if they are indeed Sendust alloy for the SA variants. I have a few spares of these.

I will try changing the nylon pressers soon just to see if that makes a huge difference or not.
At the end of the day, whatever differences I noticed in the beginning regarding the slight loss of high frequencies from the balance side, certainly hasn't got any worse now over time and is very dependant on the actual film itself.
Some play just as well from track 2 as from track 1, so I just think think a lot of it is down to slight misalignment from one original track 2 recording to another here.

I don't suppose we can always expect perfect tracking and alignment from something only 0.4mm wide!
Least of all when some are pasted and wavy and even patchy at times! [Wink]

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Maurizio Di Cintio
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 - posted August 17, 2016 06:34 AM      Profile for Maurizio Di Cintio     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks Andrew, for the prediction...

And I agree with you Re tracking capabilities of S/8 tracks. I guess one should always record a sound test film on any new projector to keep as reference whenever a doubt arises concerning head wear/misalignment over time. Which is what I usally do and will do on the 708.

Best of luck with the pressers replacement.

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Maurizio

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted August 24, 2017 05:47 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
I am bringing this thread back to life to show a fellow collector and another Beaulieu enthusiastic owner, the original magnetic head coding on my own machine as illustrated above in the photographs earlier.

I asked the question at that time of what the last two identification codes stand for and unfortunately I never got a definitive answer.

So I will put this out there again now in the hope that someone like Kevin Clark or Phil Murat here etc etc, could perhaps answer this conundrum now with any luck?

Here are some of different ident codes to be found as the last two letters referencing the magnetic heads.

SA, Rk, R, RS etc

Any ideas guys?

My original type are FK 464 R and FK 464 RK btw.

The R is the monitoring head.

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Phil Murat
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 - posted August 24, 2017 09:25 AM      Profile for Phil Murat   Email Phil Murat   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hello Andrew,

Even if the theorie for Mag Head is quite simple (Coil plus air-gap), the only thing I know is during "playing" this is a Voltage fluctuation which is traduced.
During "Recording" this a current fluctuation which is traduced....

Then a Mag Head dedicated to "play" only can have different performances than a Mag Head which is used for "play & Record".
A "play & record" head is a compromise design.

May be this is the reason why "Woelke" references are FK464R for "Monitoring" and FK464RK for "Play & Record".
Anyway as this is Super 8 (this is not HIFI), and I assume both head are interchangeable.
May be using "Monitoring" head in place of a "Play & Record" head leads to a loss of signal power during "Recording"
If this is the case, that could mean during playing the signal level could be higher than a "Play & record Head" (To be confirm by an Audio specialist.....)

I have already replaced the "Play/Record" head during the 80/90.(The 1st Beaulieu I have bought as a 2nd hand machine ,had played one movie feature a day for 2 years !!)
I bought interchangeable items (BOGGEN ??) from a small compagny specialized in Mag heads for any systems (cinema, audio, computers, etc....). So what I installed is a bit different from genuine one, but i can't ear any differences at this time.

Concerning wires colours (for my new head):
First set (RED/BLACK) is for main track
Second set (BROWN/GREEN) is for small track
BLACK & BROWN are supposed to be connected to ground.

For FK464, Yellow and White are connected to the ground.

[ August 25, 2017, 06:44 AM: Message edited by: Phil Murat ]

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Andrew Woodcock
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From: Manchester Uk
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 - posted August 24, 2017 09:50 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks Phil but on mine at least, you only have Red, White, Yellow and Black cables going into the head.

Red and White are bound together as are Yellow & Black but the two are kept separated until entering the head shell.

No Brown or Green coloured cables exist on my Stereo model above.

Are yellow & Black therefore used for track two do you think in this application as would certainly appear to be the case?

I have these same heads removed from a Bauer machine that have idents RS and SA also?

The ones sold by Wittner from original Beaulieu stock were advertised to be fitted to either Bauer or Beaulieu machines regardless.

What you suggest above also then makes me ponder over how any design differences would manifest themselves in the make up of these heads between a straight playback head and a record/ playback head.

Different thickness of coreplates perhaps?
Different number of coils or different thickness of copper wire used maybe?
Different sized air gap perhaps?

One answer leads to many more questions with most things scientific. [Big Grin] [Wink]

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Phil Murat
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From: Villeneuve St Georges, France
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 - posted August 24, 2017 10:03 AM      Profile for Phil Murat   Email Phil Murat   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
At this time , this is what you have (This is from 708 EL, but ST is almost the same).....

 -

and Schema ST ......

 -

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Andrew Woodcock
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From: Manchester Uk
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 - posted August 24, 2017 10:05 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Yes that's it Phil, wiring as exactly the drawing suggests. [Smile] [Wink]

The drawings though, still doesn't make it clear how the cables are actually configured to the heads in each case. [Confused]

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Phil Murat
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 - posted August 24, 2017 10:15 AM      Profile for Phil Murat   Email Phil Murat   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Andrew, an other idea :

While playing any movie on your machine, head cover removed, so terminals, wires and connetors can be reached.

You take a small screw driver and just make a snap contact on any of red or black treminals. the one who make noise is connected to head #1......

What do you think?

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