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Author Topic: New Toy T610, a Disaster
Tom Photiou
Film God

Posts: 4837
From: Plymouth U.K
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted October 05, 2015 01:04 PM      Profile for Tom Photiou     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Remember me and my new toy, the most expensive investment i made into my hobby? How pleased i was?
Well, i wont go into the long story but track 2 did not work. All i got from the switch was a lot of horrible noise.Also, there was some sort of bubble or chip within the 1:1 lens, the very thing that was put on the machine to persuade the sale. By pure luck i decided to watch a stereo film, Beauty and the Beast. It was during projection i realised that compared to what i was getting out of my 1200HD the sound was crap.Track two was not working.
I got hold of the company who paid for its return for repair. No drama's, very good in fact.
After two weeks i was told, "we know what it is, the pin is broken at the base of the slide switch, so they were going to replace it and also the circuit board, the lens they were looking in to.
Guess what, it came back Friday, i was over the moon, i immediately plugged it in, fired it up and first noticed the lens was the same, then guess what, no sound on track two. AGAIN. I was fuming. especially as there email said "good news, the Bauer is 100% BUT, the track 2 on super 8 films is never very good, and the way the head picks up the sound via the stereo amp the volume will always be weak.
Yeah right.
Anyway, the company have agreed a full refund thank goodness, and never again will i venture into the realms of plastic projectors.
It was a lovely looking machine, well designed and unbelievably quite running, in my case, very quite, but here is a laugh for you all, i was today asked by them, and i quote, copied and pasted,
"you mentioned you have a Elmo 1200 HD in your possession that you use for stereo sound right? Is it possible that your films are optical sound instead of magnetic? This would be a possibility why track 2 does not work.
We have checked the Bauer thoroughly here before it went to you since we wanted for you to have a perfectly working machine, and here track 2 worked perfect". [Big Grin] [Big Grin] [Big Grin] [Big Grin] [Big Grin]
I am not being mean here but i dont think i would send any of my equipment to them for repair again. Although there actual customer service is very good and very polite,also prompt. If they were in business to sell broken projectors they'd be top of the league [Big Grin] [Big Grin] . (cruel but effective)
Anyway, take a look at this Scilly thing i put together to show my point.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McKQf2OhbCw

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Dominique De Bast
Film God

Posts: 4486
From: Brussels, Belgium
Registered: Jun 2013


 - posted October 05, 2015 01:47 PM      Profile for Dominique De Bast   Email Dominique De Bast   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Bad experience, Tom ! It doesn't mean, though that Bauer are not good. Someone else could come accross a faulty Elmo and a perfectly working Bauer...

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Dominique

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Mark Silvester
Master Film Handler

Posts: 282
From: England
Registered: Oct 2007


 - posted October 05, 2015 02:13 PM      Profile for Mark Silvester     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Tom

that must be a real one-off...I have never had anything but the best experience of Bauer back in the day 83 - 86 and also models I purchased through the whole range back in the early 2000's. I think that now it's all about "vintage" cars, etc. You have been very unlucky...but no excuse for the price you paid.

[Frown]

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Mark Silvester

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Tom Photiou
Film God

Posts: 4837
From: Plymouth U.K
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted October 05, 2015 02:31 PM      Profile for Tom Photiou     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I do think its just my luck and possibly the repairs people not really knowing what's wrong. There is no way it was working 100% when it was first sent to me, then again a second time, they state it was 100% perfect, funny how its the same thing both times.
I agree with both comments on here but unfortunately i get a bit mad when people say Elmo's are not good, as you say it is a matter of opinion. This machine was the most expense i have paid into my hobby in one go in over 30 years and its the worst experience also.
I do like the machine, it is very nice, great light output and the most quite running i have seen but after all this i simply cannot trust this model again. I see other threads on here with sound problems but for me i will stick to the two i know best, Elmo and Eumig. Elmo do seem to have the best in sound output.
I'm not slating the Bauer, its just the experience of spending so much money, it arrived with a fault, it went back and came back with the same fault and there was no explanation about the lens which is also the same.
I am the wrong collector to be asked if i was trying to put through an optical film.

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted October 05, 2015 06:30 PM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
You were indeed Tom, somewhat patronized on that optical sound question, there is no denying that of a collector with your experience.Though I doubt this was intended.

Equally Tom, Dominique, Mark and just about anyone you speak to will tell you the same, on this occasion you have just been very very unlucky. You perhaps never had the opportunity from the limited time you had your machine to see the full benefits of these over the long run.

Equally one thing that is very apparent having followed your venture from beginning to end, is that it is clear that even when the amplifier fault wasn't playing up so to speak, you had a wear issue to the balance side of your main head.

Who knows with these swapped over, a couple of dry joints re soldered...you may have been delighted with the machine.(with a new lens provided of course)

To gain the kind of sound output you were both expecting and looking for, on these, you really need to be using external matched 4 ohm speakers.

This way your internal amplifier will produce its maximum output to the speakers and will give you a much fuller soundstage.

The internal speakers on these, and indeed most machines are really only fitted just for monitoring purposes.
They are even described as such in the instruction manuals.

Equally they are very good when slaved out to an external amplifier via the 5 pin din.

Ultimately nothing lost, you got a full no quibble refund which is very good service in this day and age on a machine this age.
You have been inconvenienced so to that end you have my sincere sympathy and now it's time for you to be able to look forward to a new purchase and hopefully one which will cause you far less hassle when parting with your hard earned next time. [Wink]

--------------------
"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Tom Photiou
Film God

Posts: 4837
From: Plymouth U.K
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted October 06, 2015 01:53 AM      Profile for Tom Photiou     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Very true, have to say i did love how quite it ran,that was quite something.
Onwards & upwards now though, no new machines for a while, i will keep hold of what we have and get down to the business of watching films [Wink]

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Terry Sills
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1423
From: Weymouth,Dorset,England
Registered: Oct 2012


 - posted October 06, 2015 02:18 AM      Profile for Terry Sills     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Tom
The link doesn't seem to work but can you tell us the name of the company you dealt with so that we can avoid a similar experience.

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Alan Rik
Film God

Posts: 2211
From: New York City, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted October 06, 2015 03:43 AM      Profile for Alan Rik   Email Alan Rik   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
That does suck Tom. I work for an electronics company and I am their customer service rep. I have seen situations where we have repaired an item, have it passed our tech tests (oscilloscopes, check all functions, etc.), and then the item is tested by my team before we send the item back to the customer.
And then the customer receives the item and it doesn't work! When this happens we have to get the item back to us and if its under warranty we just replace the item. If its out of warranty we then do our best to suss out the problem. If the unit has an intermittent problem that is the hardest to find as sometimes the problem only happens when the unit has been on for a while or under certain conditions.
I hope that you get the problem sorted. For the amount you paid if the unit is not in tip top shape you should get a refund. I have a Bauer T610 I purchased for around $150 US . It came with the 1.2 lens, and it was missing the gate but after all was sorted I have a perfectly running Bauer T610. They are great machines but I think we all feel your pain at having laid out so much money for a faulty item.

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted October 06, 2015 04:04 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Even with the part you had missing (which I know you were subsequently able to find!) You got yourself a real bargain there Rik.

Most private sales of these, with of course no comeback of any kind, generally fetch around the £200 to £300 Mark here in Europe for one that appears decent.

Usually they all have one fault or another at this price range but they can often quite easily be made good if you know a bit about them.

The most frequent faults on these, as on lots of different machines, generally resurface over and over again.
Once you've fixed one, you can do the same to all.

As said on many occasions previously, the Achilles heel on these at one time was if the shutter cam had worn itself out, it was extremely difficult to be able to find parts.

This thankfully, is now no longer the case. Everything else is generally speaking a set up issue or electronic fault.

For the reassuring price Tom paid, you would expect the machine both to run perfectly and also have very little wear to either of the two main magnetic heads fitted to the machine.

If both these required replacing, it costs £500 just for these alone.

These in the UK by the end of projector sales as we knew them, commanded a price of around £650. At the time the GS 1200 price had lowered slightly and could therefore be purchased for around £100 more.
A decent MK3 GS1200 with little use to the plastic guides etc, in this day and age would still bring a price point of around £850 I'd say for a very good one if indeed one like I'm describing even still exists.

I think it's the same story with these. If you want one that has experienced hardly any use, with as new heads and shutter cam etc, you would first struggle to find one and secondly, if you did, I think you could expect to pay £500 upwards for one.

If someone has bothered to purchase even one replacement head for the machine, they will have paid at least £250 out in today's money to do so. They therefore are never going to sell it for the "average" used price for one of these.

I know I certainly wouldn't anyhow.

--------------------
"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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David Roberts
Master Film Handler

Posts: 405
From: Suffolk. England
Registered: Apr 2004


 - posted October 07, 2015 02:35 PM      Profile for David Roberts     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
very bad luck Tom. we all have different experiences. i have a 502 and t60,they cost £50 each,and appart from some hum,they are perfect. i agree they seem plasticky after the elmo"s,but i just cant trust elmo again after two st1200"s put green scratches on half my film collection. i still curse every time i watch these films with the pairs of green marks,one above the other.
i suppose i was just unlucky as well.

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Tom Photiou
Film God

Posts: 4837
From: Plymouth U.K
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted October 07, 2015 02:59 PM      Profile for Tom Photiou     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Its unusual that they put a green scratch in your films, was this the GS or the ST? We have have 3 of these machines for well over 30 years, apart from a couple of films having had a small black line on the very far right we Havant had this problem. I usually clean the m out twice a year by taking out the guides, any wear on that rear one i replace it. We have 6 left which should see us out.They are extremal sturdy, good light output, and very reliable, easy to get the film out at any point and easy access to the film path, & from our own experiences once the shutter mod has been done and belts all sorted they just go on and on, the sound output of the Elmo is the best i have heard considering how cheap you pick up these now.
I must say though I think if another T610 came up for sale for under 300 and i could see it working and knew some history i think i would like to try again. I dont think they are worth more than that. In my opinion of course.
My only beef here is that i find it hard to believe that both times it was 100% working before it was sent yet the same fault was there both times, as per my you tube video. Also the lens was not sorted, the same one came back. Anyway, a refund has been offered and i will say there communication is excellent and the fact they were sad that it didn't work and a refund offer is a good outcome.
I now need to sell the electric kit i bought for it and the pilot lamp bulb There no good to me. [Wink]

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Graham Ritchie
Film God

Posts: 4001
From: New Zealand
Registered: Feb 2006


 - posted October 07, 2015 03:01 PM      Profile for Graham Ritchie   Email Graham Ritchie   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Tom

I like your video, pity about the Bauer, it does look like a nice projector. I wonder if the stereo sound head is making proper contact with the film. Its a pity they claim to have fixed it when its obvious they did not [Frown]

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Tom Photiou
Film God

Posts: 4837
From: Plymouth U.K
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted October 07, 2015 03:12 PM      Profile for Tom Photiou     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Quite annoying as you say, i will say,(although my rants probably say different), it was a lovely looking machine, very stylish in design and how quite it runs is unreal, you forget there's a projector in the room.
Maybe one day i will find another. I just fancied a good stereo projector.
I think for me the Bauer, (now i have used one), would be high maintenance, Yes you can buy new heads but at £250 a go,(and there's two of them), you may as well buy another projector. They do also use a lot of plastic within the cam and claw/framing mechanism giving it the quite run but these would wear with use i give them and i dont want to be forever replacing and repairing. I want a projector to show films.
I think i have been spoilt with the Elmo's, Bill Parsons has done a couple of bits for me but apart from a little care and general servicing they just go on and on. You can hear the sound on that video on track 2. That isn't a one off because of that film either, we only have around 10 stereo films and they all play back with this quality and volume on track 2 on the 1200HDs.
The Bauer Vs The Elmo? They are both good machines and they both have advantages over each other and i'm positive there are other stereo machines out there equally as good. One of the most important things to me aside reliability and light output is the sound, you dont hear any hum on an Elmo.
It was not meant to be i guess. [Frown]

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David Roberts
Master Film Handler

Posts: 405
From: Suffolk. England
Registered: Apr 2004


 - posted October 07, 2015 03:14 PM      Profile for David Roberts     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
both the elmos that did the pairs of green scratches were st1200 models. i had in the past about 5 other of these and none scratched. i like the performance of the elmos very much,and they look and feel like a projector should! But i just cant trust them again. if it had been one machine,maybe,but two!!
thats my experience. in every other way,i was an elmo fan.

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Tom Photiou
Film God

Posts: 4837
From: Plymouth U.K
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted October 07, 2015 03:18 PM      Profile for Tom Photiou     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thats a shame David, we had a similar experience many years ago, we took our Eumig 810D LUX back under warranty for the umpteenth time to our local shop. We kicked off a bit because we really were fed up with it coming back with same fault,to tie us over they gave us a brand new Bell & Howell filmosonic sound projector.
Took it home and i put through a brand new print 400 ft of Texas Chainsaw, it was the first time of projecting it. It went through perfect, looked good.
The following night we put it through again and there was a massive green tram-line right down the middle. We were fuming and the shop did not care less.We have never touched B&H again since.Only a 16mm which they were best at.

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted October 07, 2015 03:19 PM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Probably not Graham, the balance side of the head wears far quicker than the far wider main. This is as almost all stereo heads do.

David. What about the lower loop, tiny capstan issues causing excessive wow and the dancer issues causing huge speed irregularities, it really isn't just the fact that these scratch to me, although this irregularity is in itself unforgivable to me personally.

Where the scratching is concerned, I think all too much depends on whether or not the top feed shoe rollers still turn, once they don't that's it I'm afraid.

The tortuous path the film takes from start to take up reel leaves me amazed of why many don't see the same.

for all those that trust these implicitly, try playing a 200ft film backwards and forwards 3 times only from beginning to end and I'd be interested to see screen shots of the 4th run screening.

I will video this acid test from a Bauer or Beaulieu any day of the week as many times as you like, will others do the same from an Elmo ST 1200?

--------------------
"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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David Roberts
Master Film Handler

Posts: 405
From: Suffolk. England
Registered: Apr 2004


 - posted October 07, 2015 03:27 PM      Profile for David Roberts     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
i suppose another thing is that i dont have any stereo films and i do put up with some hum,which can be anoying if the track is recorded low.

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted October 07, 2015 03:32 PM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
I really don't find the hum effects the track once playing, only when the machine is in standby, then i turn the volume to zero until threaded.

--------------------
"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Tom Photiou
Film God

Posts: 4837
From: Plymouth U.K
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted October 07, 2015 03:36 PM      Profile for Tom Photiou     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Quite a few films i put on had audible hum on them where on the Elmo they belted out the sound with no hum, i'm wondering now if both tracks were faulty then?
Quick question, i forgot this,
On the Elmo when i finish a film as lights go up you can turn the bulb off,i often do this as the lights are switched on and the last of the sound is playing on the film, on the Bauer there was no on/off bulb switch so to turn the bulb off so you dont see the tail leader flashing i needed to switch to the first position were you then get the rattle noise of threading? Was that correct or was i doing something wrong?

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted October 07, 2015 03:40 PM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
There is no separate run / lamp switch on these, just as there isn't on hardly any other machine than the Elmo Tom but other than that I'm not too sure what you mean Tom?

You thread it, switch it to run,the lamp comes on, the projector goes quiet and the film is where ever the film is,... dependant on the amount of leader on the particular film.

--------------------
"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Tom Photiou
Film God

Posts: 4837
From: Plymouth U.K
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted October 07, 2015 03:44 PM      Profile for Tom Photiou     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Its awkward to explain,
If the film is coming to an end the titles are rolling up, on the Elmo i can still keep it all going and just turn the bulb off, the machine still runs in normal mode with all sound going, the projector still sounds normal,
If i turned the Bauer to the first position after the titles have rolled, (so the only thing going through the machine is tail end) it made the rattle of a film being threaded. They run quite once you switch to the run position. In other words the bulb stays on until you turn back to threading position, in which case if you turn it to switch the bulb off you get that threading rattle sound, does that make sense? [Wink]

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted October 07, 2015 03:52 PM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Yes Tom, I understand what you mean now. No is the answer unless you place a lens cap over the lens after the end credits.

By putting it in thread after the film is laced, it is potentially harming both your film and your projectors mechanism using one of these, or a 938/40 or a Beaulieu or just about any other super 8 mm projector I can instantly think of.

The Elmo is quite unique with this separate lamp / motor switch function, probably due to the diffuser which can be temperamental as we know.

--------------------
"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Tom Photiou
Film God

Posts: 4837
From: Plymouth U.K
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted October 07, 2015 03:56 PM      Profile for Tom Photiou     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
oh right. Thats another downer for me.
What problems do the diffusers cause?

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted October 07, 2015 03:57 PM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
They stick in the up position occasionally and burn the frame unless you get to that lamp switch before turning the motor off.

trouble is...you never know the first time the diffuser will decide to stick.

--------------------
"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Tom Photiou
Film God

Posts: 4837
From: Plymouth U.K
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted October 07, 2015 04:02 PM      Profile for Tom Photiou     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Oh i have seen that on here, again that's all down to possibly lack of service, some people tamper with the linkage mechanism, if people use the wrong lube it can gundge up and jam it, or a lack over the years of oiling that linkage. The Service manual shows the lube areas on these.
We have been blessed with our three that none of these have ever stuck,
Generally speaking if i pause the film its always good practise to switch the bulb off first. I never see any need to stop a film with the bulb burning, very bad practice.

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