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Author
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Topic: New Toy T610, a Disaster
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Andrew Woodcock
Film God
Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012
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posted October 07, 2015 04:19 PM
Yeah I know Tom, leave the film till the end etc etc , but the fact that it can, means at some point, no matter who or how often or where it is serviced is concerned, means it will at some point, Might take years but guaranteed, at some point down the line ...you will experience it, I promise.
[ October 08, 2015, 04:51 AM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]
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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"
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Dominique De Bast
Film God
Posts: 4486
From: Brussels, Belgium
Registered: Jun 2013
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posted October 07, 2015 04:36 PM
What I find surprising here is that the seller said he repaired and the trouble remained. There may be three cases : 1) The seller received the projector, didn't do anything and sent it back, saying it was fixed 2) The seller fixed the projector but the trouble came back 3) The problem occurs from time to time and is not permanent. We will probably never know. All I know is that I have some projectors that had some faults that were not visible all the time (sometimes it happened only once or twice during a 1200 ft/ 360 mt projection. On other occasions, I had a problem that came, disppeared, came again. Last year, I brought a projector for a repair and strangely when the repairman tried, another fault came out (although I was careful during the transport, I guess it happened then) and I had to explain the "original" trouble otherwise it would probably have been hidden by the other new trouble. Wathever happened with Tom's projector, the good side of the story is that he got a refund.
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Dominique
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Tom Photiou
Film God
Posts: 4837
From: Plymouth U.K
Registered: Dec 2003
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posted October 07, 2015 05:09 PM
Well, i didn't know that's why it went back to the "the experts" under the warranty.i dont think they knew either by looks of it, do you recall that video you saw when the switch made that awful noise, well, when it went back they said the bottom of the switch was broken so they were going to replace it and the board, i think they did that and assumed that was all the fault was. Switched it on, no film, pushed the slider up and down, heard the hum going up and down and assumed that was it, no more horrible noise but also no film sound either.Just my assumption, it came back still with no track two sound.It was superbly packaged so it wasnt done in the post. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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Andrew Woodcock
Film God
Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012
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posted October 08, 2015 02:47 AM
No Tom, I agree that there has been no damage in transit.
When Bill Parsons helped repair an intermittent fault on one of my projectors amplifier boards, he couldn't simulate the fault in over 40hours of using it himself!
He went over the board and the machine in general, he repaired another minor niggle regarding a damaged electrolytic beneath a VU meter and sent it back to me.
I ran it for a few days here and there...no problems at all. I ran it for another week after that...all continued to work fine again but then suddenly.. gone.
No sound on either track one or track two without using headphones or slaving out to an external amplifier.
So off it went again, this time to a nearer electronics specialist of equipment from a bye gone era.
Within (I kid you not) half an hour of having the back of the machine, I know because I was there witnessing him doing it, he was phoning me up to say he thinks he found the fault! I'd only just made it back through the door from dropping it off and explaining the problem and then watching him start the job by removing the rear cover!!!
The difference here being the fault was present at that very moment and testing was made simple as there was a breakdown in the 32v supply voltage that could be seen easily using a test meter at the psu stage.
Anyhow he went around tidying a few things up that weren't necessarily faulty but looked suspect in the connection department and he applied new heat sink paste to my main STK chipset before reseating it.
Wind the clock on nearly two years later and here we are. Not missed a beat ever since.
So the point of all this story telling is just this, if Bill Parsons can sometimes not be able to rectify a dry joint problem just because at the time the fault won't rear its ugly head, there is a good chance I'd say that anyone else could find themselves in exactly the same position irrespective of skill level, any amount of testing etc etc.
It probably shouldn't have been sent out to you quite so hastily in the first place without going through a 20 point check say, where both sides of the track are tested for both playback and recording before dispatching. This is among many other basic tests on these like testing the microprocessor works as it should etc etc.
The service manual for these even outlines the tests or checks that should be carried out before dispatch after any type of service work.
But if an intermittent fault does not show at the time, there is little that anyone can do or predict before putting it into service and then letting time and useage take its course in the manner Van Eck did with your unit Tom.
The switch you describe I have no doubt from listening to it, needed repairing or better still replacing,but clearly that isn't the only issue here. Maybe it might take a full section of the board to be re soldered before all connections are sound once again.
Maybe it needs a component change out.
We will just never know, but equally we will never know what it wasn't and this fault on this machine has all the characteristics of the one described above. So it cannot be ruled out I'd say.
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Bill has the excellent practice of sending out to you a disc showing the machine fully working when it leaves his workshop.
In this day and age with the relative ease of sending a short piece of video footage anywhere around the globe, perhaps this practice could be mimicked by all repair personnel to avoid later disappointments and future transportation costs/ risks.
[ October 08, 2015, 07:50 AM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]
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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"
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Tom Photiou
Film God
Posts: 4837
From: Plymouth U.K
Registered: Dec 2003
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posted October 08, 2015 03:38 PM
well, the old buggers gone back today, tonight I put the godfather 2 through the old Elmo, incidentally, I never mentioned this, I notice quite a few of the forum chaps left the hobby for a while, I think you said you were out for 20 years Andrew,(didn't you miss that home cinema ?) before returning?
I myself have never left the hobby and have now used my main Elmo for 33 years, (I bought it when I was 20), and a week has not gone by where it hasn't been used, very often for 2-3 hours at a time at least three or four times a week, that's a pretty good record of reliability I reckon.
Without trying to make myself sound Scilly, can you really say that the T610 or any other Bauer could do that with the same sounds heads,(not losing any quality in those years), cam and framing mechanism?
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Tom Photiou
Film God
Posts: 4837
From: Plymouth U.K
Registered: Dec 2003
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posted October 08, 2015 04:29 PM
Steve, that's exactly right, look how many films are sold with lines, splices,creases and green lines, they weren't caused by all Elmo's, no they were the crappy projectors, the cheap trash that many people bought over the 70s and 80s, boots and dixon specials, Royal and so on, people who had an average projector and never cleaned the gates & film paths, I know Elmo's are not the be all and end all but i reckon there are more of those out there than any other make.
Here is my record in a nutshell.
over 33 years of Elmo ST1200HDs. (and Eumigs), I still have them all, they have all had the shutter mod, my own manufactured 24fps clutch wheel and rubber, Each one has had the Bill Parsons treatment once and my main one has been used as i said previously, and they are all still going, no rattles, and i know out of over 350 odd films maybe 4 have caught that black line to the far right. Since i made that discovery i replaced the green guide under the second sprocket.It hasn't returned again, but i do clean everything very thoroughly, i have also many films with a few black lines that i know my Elmo's would never make in 50 years.
Having now owned a projector that admittedly never marks a film is great but not if it doesn't work properly or has heads that wear fast or will require a claw cam or framing mechanism which is hours of work to do, if you can do it.
My Elmo's,Having served me well for all these years, i think i will allow them to continue their great service without me having to keep fixing something.
Films with a few marks here and there is something we have never been worried about, its film, they are old. Most of our collection is scratch free but the ones we have were never marked by our own machines other than the four with a single black line to the very far right.
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Andrew Woodcock
Film God
Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012
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posted October 08, 2015 05:04 PM
To Tom,
I've never been without home cinema Tom in one capacity or another since 75. (Year not age! Ha ha)
I did what a lot did back in the mid to late 90's and sold it all lock stock and barrel to Derann and purchased a Sharp XV Z1E privately as soon as I could for £1500 used!!
It was noisier than xenon had a whopping 500tv lines res and an even more staggering 400 ansi lumens brightness!!
I was in my element! Didn't matter that the image looked like I was watching it through a tennis racket. Didn't matter that the Dolby Digital had to take the roof off the house before it would drown out the incredible 747 style fan noise!
Anyhow, wind the clock forward some 10 to 15 years, and here we are again. It's all gone full circle for me.
I still have a very good modern video projector which gives me incredible images in this era given how well the technology has progressed.
But this time with the cine equipment I now own and the films I have luckily acquired, there can be no going back.
At least I hope not!
I now have the kind of things I could of only ever dreamed of last time around in the hobby pre internet days. If I had had the standard of equipment and array of films then, that I have now, I doubt even then ,no matter how good the technology had evolved, would I have swapped old for new.
Onto Steve's witty comments:))
You and Tom are two of THE most fortunate ST 1200 owners that I know of. Tom's had his collection of these for 30 years and has only minimal damage to his films and you Steve have an even more successful marriage with ST1200!
For me personally, it never ever worked out sadly.
I couldn't do the things I need a projector to do for me.
From the five I've had, I have kept the only one where the front feed shoe rollers still turn and are the good old fashioned original type that were the
metal silver coloured kind.
Even with this, my most trusted of any I've had, the wow from it borders on the ridiculous, it will very very occasionally misbehave and set about putting a lovely smiley face shaped emulsion Mark somewhere on the tiny frame and beyond that short of keeping it in laboratory, I cannot do any more than I've done to keep the thing as good as it can be electrically as well as mechanically while applying surgical levels of hygiene to the film path.
All I can say is so far I've had no takers for the 200ft "acid" test on video. Maybe you'll be the first to put it to the test Steve...until the first green line appears!
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"
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Andrew Woodcock
Film God
Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012
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posted October 08, 2015 11:38 PM
The difference between Tom's machines and most everyone else's is they don't have the original green guides in them Steve.
As you say Steve, with your reference to Elvis, Tom has been in this hobby continually for a very long time.
So long in fact, he can remember when original spare parts were available to purchase and he bought quite a few of them. They've also been serviced by Bill Parsons which always helps as Bill is an expert on Elmo machines due to the sheer number he has had sent to him over the years.
There are many GS1200s that go on for many years without scratching films to begin with. Even better with the metal feed shoe and some people have won the battle completely by modifying quite a few guides with extra rollers etc.
Nevertheless by design both are littered with film path design flaws. Not small ones, very big ones.
As I keep saying, both these machines, just like any other, come with a reverse projection function.
It's a function that if you use the projector as originally intended to add sound to your home produced films, you need to use this function a fair amount.
It is amazing just how many projectors don't do this with care to your film because of errors in the design relating to the film path. It isn't just Elmo BTW but what I will also say is, I don't know of anyone who uses either of these two machines that is comfortable with projecting their treasured films both forwards AND in reverse with these.
Most would rather unthread the machine by hand half way through a print if they have to rather than place it even for minute in reverse.
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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"
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Kevin Clark
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 978
From: Bapchild, Kent, UK
Registered: May 2004
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posted October 09, 2015 02:32 AM
Hello everyone.
The bottom line here is that Super 8 is a fairly fragile guage when compared to 16mm & 35mm hence more care and correct servicing will always be required if (as we all do) you want to enjoy screening a print without causing it permanent damage.
The original designs of projectors all varied to such an extent that in one way or another they all had strengths and weaknesses.
The important bit though is, here we are 40 odd years on and the machines are still working, Super 8 is still being projected, and there are individuals and companies out there providing technical help and spares solutions to keep us going.
I'm happy with my Super 8 'line up' of Elmos, Fumeo & Visacustics, Tom is happy with his Elmos and Eumigs, Andrew with his Bauers & Beauileu, etc. etc. which we have all serviced / modded and made as film damage proof as possible.
Perhaps it is best now to move on and celebrate the positives instead of constant reminders of any negative cine experiences?
Kevin
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