8mm Forum: Inventing a projector

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Topic: Inventing a projector

Joe Caruso
Film God

Posts: 4105
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted November 06, 2015 02:08 PM

Long had an idea to create a projector, only this late date some would say 'why bother', there are many brilliant minds out there, if we all put our thoughts in motion, we might have a nice product - Shorty

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted November 06, 2015 03:01 PM

I've toyed with the idea of trying to modify in a bigger frame my Bauer T192 as it has optical sound facilities and only lets itself down by not having a top sprocket.

If it did, it could be used with 1200ft spools or even bigger!

It has many good points in its favour like a Schneider Xenovaron lens facility and a 150w Xenophot lamp.

Just needs a top sprocket and larger arms fitting to make it my first choice optical sound option.

It's a project I'd need far more time than I ever currently have to pursue but I'd love to manufacture a new larger shell for it and modify the gearing to facilitate a top sprocket one day.

I think for those who continue their long term interest in the hobby, it is something that may well become more commonplace as time moves on and decent machines become scarcer. Also with the emergence of 3D printing becoming both popular and relatively cheap, who knows what the future will enable us all to achieve with a little innovation?

It's true to say that only through an amalgamation of all the strongest points from each of the machines out there,would we ever truly get to find the "perfect projector".

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Clinton Hunt
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 845
From: Waharoa,North Island,New Zealand
Registered: May 2010

posted November 06, 2015 03:50 PM

I've toyed with the idea also,but obviously a person has to have to right tools,the right parts and probably team-up with some more like-minded people and as a group make it happen.
As this forum shows there are lots of film people out there on this small planet that know alot [Smile]

and like to share there knowledge ... Janice Glesser is a great example :-) and others too ...

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Cheers from me in New Zealand :-)

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted November 06, 2015 03:55 PM

It's certainly "doable" Clinton with what we have here, no doubt about that!

Only last week I witnessed a marvellous piece of innovation from the wonderful Mr Bill Parsons.

I think it would make an excellent design team if you put some of the people on here in a room together with a selection of some of the very best machines already created, to bounce ideas off one another.

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Mark Silvester
Master Film Handler

Posts: 282
From: England
Registered: Oct 2007

posted November 07, 2015 02:26 AM

Hi all

lets's not forget the efforts on the brilliant Phil Sheard who developed a prototype with Fumeo especially for the 8mm showman - it was basic of very solid construction and open to refinement. I know that Phil put so much of his time and effort...guess what...no-one backed him up or were ultimately interested in backing him. O.K. it was as any new machine would be expensive but Phil designed this on a 16mm type "solid" construction...sad really. We have Phil Sheard to thank for a lot of the 8mm we see today.

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Mark Silvester

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David Skillern
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 582
From: South Wales
Registered: Apr 2006

posted November 07, 2015 03:36 AM

Hi Mark,

I totally agree with your comments Mark - Phil has done and continues to do a great deal for collectors - I wish I could get up to Cleethorpes more often - my only minor gripe with him is that I continually ask him for lists via email which he offers - but I never seem to receive them and as a result - I miss out on some cracking offers.

Dave

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted November 07, 2015 05:58 AM

Phil's Fumeo for whatever reasons, didn't prove too popular when first unveiled sadly.

A lot can be done with existing equipment if people want to put the time, effort and money into them to improve them further.
I personally would prefer to utilise a trusted design for things like a film path with the precision required, than ever try to start from scratch so to speak.

I would simply be looking for the path of a Bauer mixed with the mag heads and soundstage of an Elmo or Eumig S938 with optical sound facility and the capacity of a Fumeo or Beaulieu projector and the motion control of a Beaulieu or Bauer Studio model.

Then, I would say I would have a machine as near to perfection as could realistically ever be achieved.

A new body shell to bring all of this to one unit would be the first place to start for me personally.

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Adrian Winchester
Film God

Posts: 2941
From: Croydon, London, UK
Registered: Aug 2004

posted November 07, 2015 07:35 AM

I think the potential feasibility of a new projector - at a (very substantial) price - was supported by that limited production run a very sophisticated new Super 8 camera not very long ago. It sold out, although unfortunately I don't suppose many of the buyers would also want to invest in a new projector. But (e.g.) Elmo and Eiki (if we would welcome a new 16mm projector from them) are still in business, so if we offer them the appropriate technical and design input, plus the enormous sums of money to guarantee that the minimum numbers they stipulate are sold, then it could happen. Getting an eccentric millionaire on board would be highly desirable.

However fanciful, I love the idea of 'state of the art' 8 and 16mm projectors, partly because I'm convinced that the basic remote controls that were being produced for certain Elmo and Eiki models in the 1980s would by now have also incorporated volume and fine focussing adjustments, which I'd have enjoyed doing from an armchair!

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Adrian Winchester

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Paul Adsett
Film God

Posts: 5003
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted November 07, 2015 09:32 AM

I hate to throw cold water on any ideas, but honestly I see no way that this will ever happen. The closest we came to a new super 8 sound projector was the Classic Home Cinema Fumeo about 15 years ago, and we all know what happened to that. It was a well built but bare bones sound machine, with no amplifier and no recording capability, and it cost the earth. None, as far as I know, were ever sold.
I think a much better approach is to try to extend the lives of the well known and respected work horse projectors, such as the Elmo's, Eumig's, and Beaulieu's, by trying to find someone willing to take on remanufactured sound heads. Edwin Van Eck is already supplying replacement mechanical parts for many of these great machines, and with new heads they could last another 30 years or more.

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The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj

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Mark Silvester
Master Film Handler

Posts: 282
From: England
Registered: Oct 2007

posted November 07, 2015 10:04 AM

Hi Paul

totally...and absolutely "so" very well summed up.

It always surprises me that this "old chestnut" comes around every few years..IT never will happen. Also it will never be supported financially. Your point about "plastic" printing to keep things going and other, etc, is the best you will get.
[Smile]

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Mark Silvester

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Mike Newell
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 826
From: United Kingdom
Registered: Jun 2003

posted November 07, 2015 12:01 PM

Phil's projector was doomed to failure from the beginning I'm afraid for a number of reasons. There were still new Fumeo's available when he launched his projector. It was excessively expensive because it was being made on an order by order basis. The projector's styling to be generous was a breeze block with two reels stuck on it a very 1980s East Germany communist look. He received zero support from the 8mm community. Marketing of the projector by Phil was zilch. The one review of the projector in Film for Collector was not terribly positive with terms like "work in progress"or "prototype" being mentioned not exactly inspiring to potential buyers. When you consider that the pool of collectors has dwindled considerably since those days it will take as Adrian says an very eccentric millionaire. Thankfully, most 8mm projectors are basically mechanical so you can either salvage parts from other projectors or the parts that wear out can still be replaced.

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted November 07, 2015 05:03 PM

Agreed Mike but as Paul correctly points out, we will need sound heads and one or two other bits and pieces to be manufactured to even have a chance of 30 more years for magnetic sound prints to still have a Super 8mm Projector capable of showing these to their full potential.
That's just for the machines that are already out there.
That's why I think taking the best aspects from each may prove a long term option in the decades to come if no new machines ever become available, which I agree, is highly unlikely now.

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Mike Newell
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 826
From: United Kingdom
Registered: Jun 2003

posted November 07, 2015 05:33 PM

Remember thinking about that problem 20 years ago and realistically the best option for a collector is to buy surplus projectors of the make and model which rocks their boat. Looking at the equipment sales a decent model would set you back £200 to £300. What would a repair cost so it makes economic sense. I think I only had to get one soundhead replaced that was a Bell & Howell DCT but generally they do tend to last for decades. I would guess high capacity projectors and setups using long play units would have more wear and tear.

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Barry Fritz
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1061
From: Burnsville, MN, USA
Registered: Dec 2009

posted November 07, 2015 05:41 PM

I'd be happy with a way to convert current projectors to using LED lights.

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted November 07, 2015 11:54 PM

I don't see that option as being too far away Barry given the movement in led lamp tech recently.

I think once the medical profession and professional lighting applications are fully updated, then it will become a straight exchange option hopefully.

It is indeed the hospitals and to a lesser extent,DJs and performing artist's that appear to keep our popular Osram halogen lamp range still readily available in large volumes.

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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David Roberts
Master Film Handler

Posts: 405
From: Suffolk. England
Registered: Apr 2004

posted November 10, 2015 06:30 AM

there was some support for Phils projector,i had a provisional order for one,as did some other collectors.

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John Hourigan
Master Film Handler

Posts: 301
From: Colorado U.S.A.
Registered: Sep 2003

posted November 10, 2015 08:37 AM

I, too, had put in a reservation for this projector. I never understood the vitriol directed at this attempt to bring a new projector to the hobby, particularly when existing projectors at the time were approaching 30-plus years in age.

True, marketing from CHC was zilch (which seems to be the norm, for some reason. One has to learn about these things almost by osmosis, it seems.). But with this experience, and the market being even smaller than it was then, any attempts to produce a new projector are surely doomed from an economics perspective.

[ November 10, 2015, 10:10 AM: Message edited by: John Hourigan ]

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Steven J Kirk
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 873
From: Southern England
Registered: Apr 2008

posted November 10, 2015 10:10 AM

I believe Wittner still supply brand new soundheads for the Beaulieu 708. I bought two, packed away nicely for the future should they be needed. And these were freshly constructed because when I ordered them they were waiting for a new batch to come in. They have many other new spares. A whole new machine is unlikely. A small batch of refurbished machines from someone like Wittner, FFR or Van Eck is possible but would collectors pay for even that?

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VistaVision
Motion Picture High-Fidelity

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted November 10, 2015 10:12 AM

I've never understood that either: if you don't want to buy it, don't!

I don't think we really need a new projector if by "new" we mean "new design". There are a lot of great designs out there now.

Remanufactured?

Yes.

It would be nice if somebody would grab good, existing, common used machines and rebuild them with the parts that commonly die replaced with new ones, even improved ones if the existing design has known problems. They can even put in a couple of modern features like a digital interface so the projector could be interfaced to a computer for various operations like re-recording and sync to an external DVD or automated changeovers.

It could even be done like remanufactured auto parts: send your dead one and some cash, get a different one that works!

Unfortunately people are already sort-of doing this, but the end results are film transfer units and not movie projectors. Every time I see some beautiful sound projector sentenced to a short lifetime of transferring somebody's silent 1970s birthday parties I feel regret.

-it was meant to do greater things than that!

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted November 10, 2015 10:18 AM

Yes, that's my idea also Steve.

Steven, are you sure Wittners still have the mag heads you refer to?

They are no longer listed and when the last batch was, this was said to be their last.
It's great news indeed if you are certain there are more to follow at Wittners!

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Steven J Kirk
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 873
From: Southern England
Registered: Apr 2008

posted November 10, 2015 10:27 AM

You know I just looked over at Wittners having posted and they are not listed. When I looked at my Beaulieu spares box I realised I had purchased the heads in 2011. How time flies. That was the start of a new batch. How many a batch is/was I don't know. I hadn't heard they had stopped.

Snap up the other spares while you can. Try an email about the heads. Maybe they would do a batch if enough were interested.

I think we all need to look at stocking up on spares from the likes of FFR, Van Eck and Wittner while we can...

[ November 10, 2015, 04:43 PM: Message edited by: Steven J Kirk ]

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VistaVision
Motion Picture High-Fidelity

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted November 10, 2015 10:55 AM

Cheers Steven. Will do, but are you of the mindset that more are being manufactured for Wittners?

E.g.:-You hinted as though when you purchased yours recently,they told you more were to follow. Is this the case? I do hope so for ALL Bauer and Beaulieu users both now and in the future! [Confused]