8mm Forum


Post New Topic  Post A Reply
my profile | my password | register | search | faq | register | forum home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» 8mm Forum   » 8mm Forum   » Problems with striping cine film (Page 1)

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!  
This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2 
 
Author Topic: Problems with striping cine film
Tim Murray
Junior
Posts: 28
From: Croydon, England
Registered: Nov 2014


 - posted March 22, 2016 11:10 AM      Profile for Tim Murray   Email Tim Murray   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have been attempting to stripe tape onto my Standard 8mm Kodak 25 cine film and am having problems with getting the tape to stick to the film. I purchased some striping cement from a firm in Germany, wittner-cinetec. I am using Agfa striping tape and am using a Balfour Rexette stripe machine. All seems to go ok but the tape is not being cemented to the film. The stripe cement is labelled for acetate film so I am at a loss to understand what the problem is. The tape appears to bind to the film correctly but then when it is pulled through the projector gate it comes apart from the film. I wonder if the cement is of a different formula and, perhaps needs a longer time to set? Anyone have any ideas or have had similar problems? Thanks Tim

 |  IP: Logged

Phil Murat
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 630
From: Villeneuve St Georges, France
Registered: Dec 2015


 - posted March 22, 2016 11:23 AM      Profile for Phil Murat   Email Phil Murat   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Tim,

If I have all prety understood, in summary, the stripe do not stay stuck anymore on the support.

Did you lubricate this film in the past ?
If film has been lubricated with silicon mixture, be advise that silicon lubricant is very, very difficult to remove, even with strong solvant.
If this is the case , it could be the root cause of the problem

 |  IP: Logged

Tim Murray
Junior
Posts: 28
From: Croydon, England
Registered: Nov 2014


 - posted March 22, 2016 11:49 AM      Profile for Tim Murray   Email Tim Murray   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks for the reply. No there is no lubricant on the film. I think that it is the cement but am not sure how to check. The cement looks fine and is in a sealed bottle. I am writing to the firm in Germany to see if they can add anything to this. Unfortunately Balfour closed down may years ago so it is not possible to obtain striping cement from them.

 |  IP: Logged

Dominique De Bast
Film God

Posts: 4324
From: Brussels, Belgium
Registered: Jun 2013


 - posted March 22, 2016 11:56 AM      Profile for Dominique De Bast   Email Dominique De Bast   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Tim, I have exactly the same problem you have. I discussed this with someone who knows much regarding technical things. He told me that the temperature matters, stripping should be done in a hot environment. Another man told me that sunlight makes a "chemical" reaction (with the rays) that helps the stripe gluing. I haven't tried since I had these tips so I cannot tell if it really improves things but that's what I was told.

--------------------
Dominique

 |  IP: Logged

Tim Murray
Junior
Posts: 28
From: Croydon, England
Registered: Nov 2014


 - posted March 22, 2016 12:00 PM      Profile for Tim Murray   Email Tim Murray   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Dominique
Many Thanks for the suggestion. I must admit that this is a cold time of year, so that could very well make a difference. I will try again at a later stage when I can ensure that the temperature is higher.

Tim

 |  IP: Logged

Paul Browning
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 995
From: West Midlands United Kingdom
Registered: Aug 2011


 - posted March 22, 2016 12:33 PM      Profile for Paul Browning   Email Paul Browning   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Tim, you might have the wrong stripe for the cement your using. There is Agfa f5 and acetate based stripe which is for home striping. I thought the Agfa f5 is polyester based stripe. The Agfa is light brown in colour, the other is darker brown I believe.

 |  IP: Logged

Tim Murray
Junior
Posts: 28
From: Croydon, England
Registered: Nov 2014


 - posted March 22, 2016 12:52 PM      Profile for Tim Murray   Email Tim Murray   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi
Yes I am using Agfa and also Superstripe, both home striping tapes. I wonder if that is a problem. They are both brown, the Agfa looks a bit darker. Not sure how I can check. I assumed that the acetate referred to the cine film, not the striping tape. I did not have a problem with the Balfour Rexette cement and it did not state acetate or polyester. It is definitely for home striping as it comes on small reels that are used in the Rexette machine. Maybe I should ask wittner-cinetec what sort of tape their cement is made for.
Thanks
Tim

 |  IP: Logged

Paul Browning
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 995
From: West Midlands United Kingdom
Registered: Aug 2011


 - posted March 22, 2016 01:02 PM      Profile for Paul Browning   Email Paul Browning   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Tim, don't take this the wrong way, but are you putting the tape stripe on the right side up ?, dull side up, shiny side down, just a thought, as the base is the same material as the film, and the paste is just rust basically.

 |  IP: Logged

Dominique De Bast
Film God

Posts: 4324
From: Brussels, Belgium
Registered: Jun 2013


 - posted March 22, 2016 01:18 PM      Profile for Dominique De Bast   Email Dominique De Bast   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Tim and Paul, I tried both sides (strip and film !) to be sure. The trouble is that when used on the right side, the stripe is glued but when the stripped film arrives on the next guide, the stripe goes away.

--------------------
Dominique

 |  IP: Logged

Tim Murray
Junior
Posts: 28
From: Croydon, England
Registered: Nov 2014


 - posted March 22, 2016 01:29 PM      Profile for Tim Murray   Email Tim Murray   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Paul and Dominique

Hi. Yes I have made sure that I am striping on the correct side of the tape/film. I did successfully stripe films many years ago and only recently thought that I should do the rest. The problem was obtaining the striping cement. It took a long time before I found the firm in Germany that sold the stuff. I guess that it could be the cement. Does anyone know of any other place where I can obtain film striping cement? I will try to stripe again when I can do so at a higher temperature as it appears that the stripe is cemented until it goes through the projector where it just unsticks.

Tim

 |  IP: Logged

Dominique De Bast
Film God

Posts: 4324
From: Brussels, Belgium
Registered: Jun 2013


 - posted March 22, 2016 01:33 PM      Profile for Dominique De Bast   Email Dominique De Bast   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I tried with FFR cement. I don't know if it's the same Wittner sells.

--------------------
Dominique

 |  IP: Logged

Tim Murray
Junior
Posts: 28
From: Croydon, England
Registered: Nov 2014


 - posted March 22, 2016 01:36 PM      Profile for Tim Murray   Email Tim Murray   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Dominique
Is FFR cement available still. I am not familiar with that. Is it something that you bought locally in France?

Thanks
Tim

 |  IP: Logged

Paul Browning
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 995
From: West Midlands United Kingdom
Registered: Aug 2011


 - posted March 22, 2016 01:38 PM      Profile for Paul Browning   Email Paul Browning   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Tim, I think there is a formula on the net for you to make your own up, 2 part acetone to 1 part dioxan. Google it Tim, I have it somewhere, I'll have a look for you.

 |  IP: Logged

Tim Murray
Junior
Posts: 28
From: Croydon, England
Registered: Nov 2014


 - posted March 22, 2016 01:43 PM      Profile for Tim Murray   Email Tim Murray   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Paul

That's great. If you could find it that would be really useful.

Thanks
Tim

 |  IP: Logged

Paul Browning
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 995
From: West Midlands United Kingdom
Registered: Aug 2011


 - posted March 22, 2016 02:03 PM      Profile for Paul Browning   Email Paul Browning   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Tim, the last post is all its says about this, other than this can be used only with acetate based film and not poly film, that can only be paste striped. Not sure what doixan is or where you can get it, but acetone is just nail varnish remover, so that's easy to come by. How new is your stripe Tim, could it be that this is just too old to use now.

 |  IP: Logged

Dominique De Bast
Film God

Posts: 4324
From: Brussels, Belgium
Registered: Jun 2013


 - posted March 22, 2016 02:06 PM      Profile for Dominique De Bast   Email Dominique De Bast   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
This how it looks like :
 -
I bought it from a French site but it originally comes from Germany (FFR is German) ; I don't know if there is one manufacturer who resells to companies putting then their own labell or if there are several different makes.

--------------------
Dominique

 |  IP: Logged

Tim Murray
Junior
Posts: 28
From: Croydon, England
Registered: Nov 2014


 - posted March 22, 2016 02:19 PM      Profile for Tim Murray   Email Tim Murray   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Dominique
Looks very similar to the item that I bought. I got it direct from Germany
Paul
Thanks for the info. You are correct that acetone is easy to get hold of. I googled dioxan and gulped at the results from a health point of view. I will persevere with the current stuff and also see if it is possible to obtain dioxan.
Tim

 |  IP: Logged

Graham Ritchie
Film God

Posts: 3939
From: New Zealand
Registered: Feb 2006


 - posted March 22, 2016 10:59 PM      Profile for Graham Ritchie   Email Graham Ritchie   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Tim

I used the Rexette back in the late 1970s and to this day the stripe is still really good.

If I remember right once the stripe reaches the projector, its on for life. I used to give the film a good clean first...three passes over with cleaner on the hand winders.

It sounds to me that your cement is not the right stuff for the stripe to stick, are you using the projector at 18fps? and give yourself a bit of distance from the projector to the striper.

The Rexette is a brilliant striper to use, but once you start striping you cant stop as the cement applied by that little wheel with dry almost in a instant. I always liked the spring loaded "pressure roller" where both the stripe and film meet, keeping everything nice and flat. [Cool]

Anyway best of luck, hope things work out.

 |  IP: Logged

Lee Mannering
Film God

Posts: 3198
From: The Projection Box
Registered: Nov 2006


 - posted March 23, 2016 04:38 AM      Profile for Lee Mannering     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Likewise purchased my striper in the 70's and still going although my stock of bottled adhesive always stored in the lab fridge which I preferred over the Rexette type is getting a bit depleted. [Eek!]

 |  IP: Logged

Tim Murray
Junior
Posts: 28
From: Croydon, England
Registered: Nov 2014


 - posted March 23, 2016 04:57 AM      Profile for Tim Murray   Email Tim Murray   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Many Thanks for the responses. I too think that it is the adhesive that is the problem. The firm in Germany, wittner-cinetec, have been pretty unhelpful. The purchase I made was just over two years ago and, you've guessed it, the shelf life is 2 years! Even though the bottle has been kept sealed and in a cool place. My suspicion is that the cement is not up to scratch. It would seem that Dominique has the same problem with the same cement. Does anyone have any idea where I can get a decent stripe cement from?
Thanks
Tim

 |  IP: Logged

Tim Murray
Junior
Posts: 28
From: Croydon, England
Registered: Nov 2014


 - posted March 23, 2016 07:07 AM      Profile for Tim Murray   Email Tim Murray   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi once again. Thanks to Graham and Lee for their responses. I too have used the Rexette for over 40 years and have not had a problem before in the cement setting. The stripe usually sets very quickly in the time that the film goes from the Rexette to the projector. I did have a few drop outs of stripe over the years and have used splicing cement for small bits of stripe, by hand. I did find that this also took a longer time to dry that the striping cement. I have only recently embarked on using the Rexette again to attempt to stripe my remaining cine film. It took me a long time to find striping cement and now this does not seem to wok as well as the previous Balfour product. The only thing that I might explore is giving the adhesive more time to dry before it goes anywhere near a film sprocket/gate. I wonder if there is any additive that I could use to add to the cement to improve its setting ability. Not sure whether that would be acetone or dioxin. Any chemist reading this who might have an idea?
Thanks
Tim

 |  IP: Logged

Dominique De Bast
Film God

Posts: 4324
From: Brussels, Belgium
Registered: Jun 2013


 - posted March 23, 2016 07:31 AM      Profile for Dominique De Bast   Email Dominique De Bast   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Tim, to be complete, I must add that the specialist I talked with told me that before he built a striping machine that has a kind of heater for the Wheel that put the glue on the film, he also experimented bad results. I haven't tried, yet in a warmer environment so I don't know if that would be a solution or not. I cannot see any shelf life indication on my bottle.

--------------------
Dominique

 |  IP: Logged

Paul Browning
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 995
From: West Midlands United Kingdom
Registered: Aug 2011


 - posted March 23, 2016 08:02 AM      Profile for Paul Browning   Email Paul Browning   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I think you have answered your own question Tim, the cement used although sealed has lost whatever was in it that binds the two parts together successfully through evaporation. Why don't you try shaking the bottle for few minutes to agitate the cement, might be just that, what have you got to loose, it's not working too well anyway, and it may solve it short term.

 |  IP: Logged

Heinrich Kronschlaeger
Film Handler

Posts: 38
From: Linz, Austria
Registered: Jan 2004


 - posted March 23, 2016 10:03 AM      Profile for Heinrich Kronschlaeger   Email Heinrich Kronschlaeger   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I own two sorts of striping tapes: one that is blue if holding it up against the light ( a lamp etc.) : I always think it is Agfa F5.
And another that is grey-silver if holding it up against the light: I think this is Orwo.
Some years before I bought real Agfa-F5 stripes at Wittner and Rinser ( in Munich- this shop is now closed ) and I got blue stripes as described before.
I read in a film magazine that Agfa stripes dissolve very slowly in strong solvent , but Orwo dissolves very fast. I tested this and indeed the blue one ( Agfa ) dissolves very very slowly, the other fast.
My experiences gluing stripes on the film:
I am using the machine Bolex DS 240, an excellent machine and I am doing this for more than the past 10 years .I bought the cement from Wittner and FFR. Both are equally good. Even cement that is 7- 8 years old can be used ( stored in a dark and cool room in an additional glass ). Before using the cement and the stripes I store them some days in a warm room.
When I use Orwo stripes I made the following experiences: Here in Austria we have about 240 volts and then after gluing I was able to pull the narrow track (0.45 mm) away again. The Bolex machine is designed for 220V! But if I use an adjusting transformer ( With it I can choose the alternating current from 0V up to 250 V ) at 215 volts, then the balancing track shows no delamination .
I also use Agfa F5 stripes -this had shown no delamination even when the Bolex DS 240 is operated at 240 V.
But I don`t know if I this contribution is helpful for Tim with his problem gluing stripes on film.
Henry

 |  IP: Logged

Tim Murray
Junior
Posts: 28
From: Croydon, England
Registered: Nov 2014


 - posted March 23, 2016 10:50 AM      Profile for Tim Murray   Email Tim Murray   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Henry
Many thanks for the response. I did not think that the two years old cement was a problem. It has been stored, sealed and in a cool place. I will experiment with trying to carry it out in a warmer environment. I will also see if I can come up with a plan to let the film run for a longer distance before it goes through the projector sprockets/gate. From the comments kindly left by people I am convinced that it is the cement. As mentioned before, the Balfour cement had no problems under any environment and, like Graham mentioned, it was done over 40 years ago and is still solidly attached to the film. It would be interesting to see if there is an element that could be added to make it stick quicker.
Tim

 |  IP: Logged



All times are Central
This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2 
 
Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic    next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:

Visit www.film-tech.com for free equipment manual downloads. Copyright 2003-2019 Film-Tech Cinema Systems LLC

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.3.1.2