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Author
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Topic: Upgrading projector - Advice
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Miguel Gimenez
Film Handler
Posts: 52
From: Grenoble, France
Registered: Feb 2010
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posted April 01, 2016 01:48 AM
Hello,
After some time using my Chinon SS1200 I think it is time to upgrade to a better projector. I have read a lot these forums and internet in general but more I read more lost I am.
I had the idea of getting an Elmo GS1200 (Xeon or not Xeon?), but it seems that it has its own "limitations"...
On the other hand it seems that some Fumeo or a Beaulieu 708 could be a very good choice too. But I don't see specifically why (my fault, I mean likely I don't know enough). Strenghts vs weakness.
The only thought that seems clear is that film guides in plastic (like the Chinon) is not the best thing and they could finish by scratching the film. But at side of that I am lost.
Basically I want to project for small audiences (max 10 persons, usually 4 or 5), in 2 to 2.5 m wide screens (maximum!), usually a bit smaller. I have mainly Disney features coming from Derann.
I make dubbing for mono features using the compensation band, so dubbing capabilities and two "bands" or stereo sound is a must.
BTW, optical sound is really necessary?
So for me the most important, is maximum "guarantee" (counting on a good maintenance) of no scratching the film, good sound (recording and playing), and specially, a good transmission. I don't want to "play lottery" and burn a frame because of transmission is cheap.
Stability on projection (steady frame), good light output (see more below regarding Xeon, though), is also wished.
To begin with, I prefer to go to the best (or among/near the best) than to start looking into middle-quality projectors. A priori, I thought on expending up to 1000 €, but we will see (maybe is too much or not enough, will see).
Regarding Xeon or Hti (?) I am not sure. As far as I understand, its main advantage is more light output which is useful for bigger projections/audiences. On the other hand I am concerned about its colour temperature. AFAIK, some prints (like the Derann Disneys's) are done for projection with halogen/tungsten lights in mind, so I am afraid that using Xeon will produce a cold cast to the image. This is very important to me, I am really concerned (and I have quite in-deep knowledge) about color management in photography, and it is important to me. I have not seen here discussions about this color temperature potential issue, though.
Well, any advice from people experienced here will be very welcomed. Because, as you can see, I don't have too much experience/knowledge and I am afraid of going wrong if I decide too fast or by myself only. Thanks!
Edit reason: orthography
[ April 01, 2016, 05:23 AM: Message edited by: Miguel Gimenez ]
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Andrew Woodcock
Film God
Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012
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posted April 01, 2016 05:52 AM
Jean-Marc has everything summarized really well here, except to say, aside from the very later Beaulieu projectors, they all come with the Schneider Xenovaron excellent f1.1 lens as standard.
If you decide to go down the Beaulieu route, I personally, would only recommend the Stereo onwards models, due to some reports of earlier models having in some cases, inferior gate machined parts that will scratch films as they age.
Once you get to the later Stereo models and the the Studio 93 range Inc the HTI model, this will not happen, I guarantee.
The Osram Xenophot A1 232 combined with the adjustable 2/3 bladded shutter plus the extremely fast pull down claw on these machines, produces an incredible amount of light onto a screen of at least 10ft and also has a lovely whiteness to it that is difficult to come anywhere close to using any other halogen projector on the gauge.
I have used all of the projectors Jean-Marc speaks of apart from the GS 1200. However I have seen and witnessed the pros and cons of this machine on many occasions, so I do have experience of it in use.
For a non scratching high performance showcase machine for an audience of 10, there is no doubt in my mind that the all round ultimate performer for playback of films while keeping the films in the same condition coming out of the machine as when they enter into it....is the Beaulieu 708el CD Stereo models and onwards.
This is regardless of its other advantage of being capable of showing a full feature film on one reel of film, should you so wish.
The Bauer projector, even without pulse sync is my ultimate favourite recording projector for ease of use and the ability to cut in and out of a scene with zero noticeable effect.
It also allows forward and reverse multiple transportation of the film without any damage incurred to film by doing so.
By using the Bauer or Eumig as your showcase projector on playback to an audience of 10, there would however be some element of compromise over the performance of the Beaulieu and that includes light output onto the screen.
I have also never owned a Fumeo, but having digested all the comments from all of their respected owners,which I know a good number of fairly well now and given the extremely limited stereo models and extremely limited recording models, I would not recommend these for your needs here either.
If you do choose to go down the Elmo route, as a safe guarding exercise, I would strongly recommend that you change out all of the known wear parts for the new improved range from Van Eck etc as well as fitting the metal input guide shoe that is still readily available from FFR etc.
Do expect greater reliability issues than most other models and do ensure you have some instant access to vital spare parts like motors etc. These are now becoming more difficult to source without obtaining a second donor machine.
Bear in mind, Beaulieu machines are the only super 8mm Projector that you can still obtain nearly all brand new spare parts for that you are likely to need for the next 20 years or so to keep the thing running A1!
In summary then, if this was my decision to make here, I wouldn't be looking to purchase one projector here, I'd be looking for two.
From the two I'd select to cover all the things you wish to achieve from a super 8mm Projector to the highest standards achievable, with zero risk to film, my two choices would always be the Bauer T610 and later Beaulieu Stereo models that both include the Schneider MC Xenovaron f1.1 11-30mm lens and Osram Xenophot A1 232 lamp on the standard machines and better still, the HTI lamp for the highest Beaulieu model, if you can find one within budget.
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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"
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Miguel Gimenez
Film Handler
Posts: 52
From: Grenoble, France
Registered: Feb 2010
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posted April 01, 2016 09:42 AM
Thank you very much for these explanations. A lot of experience there. This is unvaluable.
I see that the Beaulieu is the optimal for my case. Really what you say about the "issues" I could have, even after replacing the wear pieces by the improved ones, and the scarce spare parts, makes me think twice about the Elmo.
The lamp you mention, the Osram Xenophot A1 232, I understand is the one for the Beaulieu non-HTI. This lamp seems a Xeon lamp but with a 3350K of color temperature, that's fine for me.
Now it seems that the only thing that is attractive for me of the Elmo is the pulse-sync feature. That would be the solution for listen stereo features in my native tongue (I couldn't dub it because I would lost a stereo track). Although I guess is possible to do, I don't know if it is easy.
BTW, is it possible to make a pulse-sync playback in a non pulse-synched projector (using some external device)?
About the Beaulieu HTI, do you know the lamp model used? I have read that with added good ventilation it is possible to use a HTI lamp in the non-HTI model. That would be a plus, if eventually in the future it could be needed, although some engineering should be done to fit a powerful fan/turbine.
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Miguel Gimenez
Film Handler
Posts: 52
From: Grenoble, France
Registered: Feb 2010
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posted April 01, 2016 10:21 AM
Thanks for your advice. I think I agree.
The HTI advantage over the non-HTI I guess is only more light output, isn't ?
If the HTI lamp is the one I linked above, then I think I can do without it (because of price of projector) but specially because it has 5600 K, too cold for me, I'm afraid. Maybe some day I will need some colder light, but for the moment I think I'll save the extra money.
What you say about the motor drive sounds very nice. In fact, due to transmission, a few days ago I have just burned out a frame of Derann's Snow White on the Chinon. I can't forgive myself for that ! I really can't ! And in the scene of the magic mirror (one of my favorites... ![[Frown]](frown.gif) )
If only I could find this portion from other Derann copy, I'd try to fix it... But never I'll project it again except in a really safe projector.
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Andrew Woodcock
Film God
Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012
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posted April 01, 2016 02:02 PM
The focussing system is similar to the accuracy experienced of that of a micrometer thread.
It is universally recognized as being the best and most accurate focussing system of any Super 8mm projectors focussing mechanism.
Other "coarser" mechanisms prove far more difficult to focus with when using fast lenses with shallow depths of field and therefore drift out of focus very easily.
With the Beaulieu mechanism, wherever you set it, it stays put.
Also what helps here, is the rare rear sprung gate mechanism.
This keeps the focal length between frame and lens the exact same distance even if different thicknesses of film are joined together like two trailers for example, one acetate, one polyester.
Paul Adsett is someone who posts here. He is a professional mechanical engineer. If you search through his recent posts here, you will see how he gauges this mechanism versus others and Paul is a Eumig and GS owner, not a Beaulieu owner!
Does the lamp house and gate get hot?
Yes of course it does, it's all made of heat conductive steel.
Does this ever pose a problem with warping film or blistering frames etc?
No, never! It is extremely delicate to film and its total transportation when all is per factory settings and set up!
It also dissipates the heat from the lamp house very quickly and effectively by force venting it out through the rear cover with its powerful yet not particularly noisy internal fan.
This projector also does not allow the lamp on full power when still frame facility is used, thus further insuring guaranteed protection of our valuable and often irreplaceable films.
You have nothing to fear with these machines Miguel. Believe me I would not wax lyrical about any machine if it hadn't served me extremely well for a good number of years.
They often need some adjustment when first obtaining them from what I hear and experience, but once set absolutely correctly they are a wonderful professional machine by design.
Sound can appear a little "thin" at times,especially on bass, but using any decent equalizer before an external amp, it can be made rich in sound quality with ease.
Use bass heavy speakers like "Mission" for example, all can be nicely balanced.
I am not easily impressed by many projector designs as often major flaws are observed in their design.
This is one that does the things we really value, very well indeed and gets nearly all the "what counts factors" spot on for your Showtime requirements and certainly mine anyhow.
One of the few things that score low by users is the nylon spindle hubs which do not have the most powerful locking system it has to be said for the very large and heavy reels of film this machine is capable of handling.
What I have found with these is, that so long as you use Posso (Beaulieu) official spools or other quality spools like Elmo, Schneider, Bonum, Gepe etc etc...all is fine.
Do not be tempted to force fit ill fitting off standard spools, these will damage your spindle hubs.
Some later models come with uprated steel spindle hubs. These allow almost any spool to be fitted to them without detriment.
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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"
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Miguel Gimenez
Film Handler
Posts: 52
From: Grenoble, France
Registered: Feb 2010
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posted April 02, 2016 01:40 AM
Andrew, thanks for your explanations. Really unvaluable, and serves to reassure me about this projector. The somewhat 'thin' sound, at first and if it is not too evident, does not 'sound' too bad for me, because I am a bit tired of the low end emphasizing in every device built nowadays. I don't like too thin sound of course. This is the same as VHS vs DVD editions. DVD having always more opaque (balanced they'd say) sound of the same soundtracks, I prefer VHS versions (even if they come with a slight hiss background sound). And regarding focusing system -I have read Paul Adsett posts- it seems the best although of course I can't guess nothing here. Jean-Marc seems to find it harder. Maybe it is a subject of personal preferences. I dunno, although being a mechanical engineer myself (although working as hydraulic) I appreciate what Paul explains about this.
BTW, I found this comment from Paul: 'I believe I read somewhere on this forum that the Beaulieu has a much narrower recording head than most super 8 projectors. If that is the case, recordings made on other projectors may not playback very well on the Beaulieu.'. I guess from your answers that it has not been never a problem for you, but I wanted to comment it just in case there is some case in which it could be a problem.
Really by re-reading the posts in this topic and in the forum I realize more and more the quality of the Beaulieu.
One question though:
Jean-Marc I understand from your comment that the 'more recent' version of the 708 are better regarding these two topics? But for you, still below Elmo?
If so, do you have some clue to help me identify one of the more recent ones? Or are you referring to an HTI or the -very hard to find- Studio 93? Or maybe you refer simply to the ones built from 'some year' onwards?
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Miguel Gimenez
Film Handler
Posts: 52
From: Grenoble, France
Registered: Feb 2010
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posted April 02, 2016 08:46 AM
Glups ![[Embarrassed]](redface.gif) ! Invaluable, yes Sorry.
Regarding the pulse-sync, I'll explore the possibility to use the Beaulieu (or buy a GS just for that), later on.
I found in another site info about the Beaulieu 708 not-HTI having the -how is called in english?- 'firewall' or 'douser/dowser' to block the light from the lamp to the frame, but according to them, in the HTI this was removed.
So, this is definitive. For me the HTI has several disadvantages (the missing 'firewall/douser', price and lamp color temp).
Conclusion: I have to look for a Beaulieu 708EL Stereo (non-HTI) from the 1990s if possible. (And later, the Bauer T610, I don't forget it).
Now I only have to find one in good shape (?).
Can, someone who have a Beaulieu 708, tell me if these projectors show the manufacture date in a characteristics plate or similar?
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