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Author Topic: So Why 8mm ?
Osi Osgood
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From: #399R K.O.A. Mountian Home, ID. 83647
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 - posted July 09, 2016 11:48 AM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage   Email Osi Osgood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'm not sure if i would agree with you're scenario completely, as i have run into truly grange super 8's that are as good or better than a 16MM. Now, 16MM at the top of it's game is probably better. If you go by "grain" and such, I would, as a general rule agree, but there are the exceptions. [Smile]

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Paul Adsett
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 - posted July 09, 2016 01:35 PM      Profile for Paul Adsett     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
All things being equal, 16mm is about four times better than super 8mm, based on frame area.
I was watching the Blu ray of the 1995 Pride and Prejudice a couple of nights ago, and the picture was the most stunning I have yet seen on Blu Ray. Beautiful film like colours and really astonishing detail on clothing and landscape shots. I thought for sure it was filmed in 70mm, but when I looked up the technical specs it was in fact "mastered on super 16mm"!
Which just goes to show that digital origination may not be as good as super 16.

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Andrew Woodcock
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From: Manchester Uk
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 - posted July 09, 2016 02:38 PM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Maybe against standard 8mm Paul 4 times, but I thought the maths worked out far more favourable for the bigger Super 8mm frame. You'd certainly never believe the 4x difference anyway on home sized screens for the best that's out there on 8, if it is a genuine 4x increase in actual frame area?

Don't know personally, never bothered doing the maths.

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Brian Fretwell
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 - posted July 10, 2016 02:55 PM      Profile for Brian Fretwell   Email Brian Fretwell   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Also, Paul, could you tell the shot on the Pride & Prejudice Blu Ray that was from a print - not the negative? The BBC team that did the transfer said that they had to take one outdoor shot from the print for some reason I can't remember. After they had put that (ans identified the shot)I could see that it was of lower quality.

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Winbert Hutahaean
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 - posted July 10, 2016 08:06 PM      Profile for Winbert Hutahaean   Email Winbert Hutahaean   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Osi, if comparing 8mm vs 16mm - Ceteris paribus/all other things being equal - i.e the same master, the same film stock, the same lab chemical, the same lab process, the same screening size, etc there is no chance 8mm will be better than 16mm. This something we, 8mm collectors, must admit it.

8mm can only win against 16mm in terms of giving stereo track. But once 16mm is installed with DTS or other synchronizer sound devices, it can also give stereo or even 6.1 sound.

For me having 16mm is just to attract having larger format 35mm, 70mm etc. There is always sky above the sky. So I limit myself on 8mm and claiming my self as a film collector.

Should I need entertainment I will go to DVD.

This is similar to Chevy Bel Air collectors, where they have this type of car not for their daily transportation e.g shopping to a mall, but more as collectible items. Once a while they can show them off in an exhibition or during a parade. When they need shopping just drive a Dodge Caravan.... [Wink]

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Winbert

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Adrian Winchester
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From: Croydon, London, UK
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 - posted July 10, 2016 10:29 PM      Profile for Adrian Winchester   Email Adrian Winchester   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I certainly have Super 8 prints that beat certain 16mm prints, but I suspect that collectors are sometimes comparing top quality modern Super 8 prints with older colour 16mm prints that don't showcase the gauge at its best. It tends to be the relatively scarce features, trailers, etc (printed from negatives) from around the mid 1980s onwards that really 'knock out' an audience. 16mm printing stock was also setting new standards at the same time as Super 8 stock was.

I think there's also a psychological factor in which your expectations influence the impression that a print makes. E.g. I once had a sharp Super 8 print and a somewhat soft 16mm print of the same film. I made a point of comparing the two before deciding which to keep, because it was the Super 8 copy that had impressed me more. But the comparison revealed that the 16mm print was sharper and had more detail, even though it had seemed less impressive simply because it was 16mm. You occasionally hear claims that a Super 8 print is "as good as 35mm", but even if it's exceptional, I'm convinced that a direct comparison would show that it can't compete with 35mm.

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Alan Rik
Film God

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From: New York City, NY, USA
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 - posted July 10, 2016 11:55 PM      Profile for Alan Rik   Email Alan Rik   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I love Super 8 but there is no way that it could compare to 35mm. I think if your viewing size is between 6-8 ft. than a 16mm print next to it would look comparable if its at the same size. Where you really notice it is when the print is screened on a large scale. My GS1200 Xenon was projected at the Walter Reade Theatre on a huge screen for an Independent Film Show. Thats when you see the limitations of the format. It just can't hold the same resolution as 35mm or 16mm. I think if you had 2 prints that came from the same master but one was printed on Super 8 and the other on 16mm-no contest. Well..you can get nice Stereo sound from Super 8. [Smile]
But since I don't project over 10ft, the gauge works great for me! But if I had a bigger place where I could store the projectors in a dedicated booth and the films in a vault than I would definitely get a 16mm and a 35mm projector as well. But I would still keep Super 8 because I still shoot in Super 8. An acquaintance of mine had a print of "Enter the Dragon" 35mm Scope. With the new scenes with Bruce talking to the monks. He said it was pristine. I saw a screenshot. Price-It sold for $2000. I was definitely almost going to buy it. But then ...how would I watch it? [Big Grin]

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Graham Ritchie
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 - posted July 11, 2016 12:03 AM      Profile for Graham Ritchie   Email Graham Ritchie   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I guess for me it was more Super8 filmmaking than collecting back in the 70s, but as time went on collecting digests as well became the thing.

Later years I added 16mm as well, and titles of interest were coming up either on Super8 or 16mm.

Things grew and grew and then 35mm came along...where does all this film stuff end [Big Grin]

Anyway Super8 is where I started and have never given it up and wont. I still shoot Super8 from time to time and collecting the odd Super8 digest like "Mag Men in the flying Machines" I bought just last weekend.

All film formats have something to offer but the down side is I just don't have enough room for an 70MM Imax projector [Wink] or have I mmmmm [Roll Eyes]

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Michael O'Regan
Film God

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From: Essex, UK
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 - posted July 11, 2016 11:42 AM      Profile for Michael O'Regan   Email Michael O'Regan   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Now, 16MM at the top of it's game is probably better.
No "probably" about that. Osi.
[Wink]

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Tom Spielman
Master Film Handler

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 - posted July 11, 2016 01:02 PM      Profile for Tom Spielman   Email Tom Spielman   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks for your replies everyone. I now have a better understanding.

For home viewing Super 8 has some particular advantages it seems:
  • Quieter projectors
  • Less storage space required
  • Projectors designed for smaller rooms (like in a home)
  • Stereo sound much more common
  • Picture quality relative to 16mm is good for the size of projection typically required

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Osi Osgood
Film God

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From: #399R K.O.A. Mountian Home, ID. 83647
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 - posted July 11, 2016 01:03 PM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage   Email Osi Osgood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
well ... yeah, Micheal! [Big Grin]

Ah c'mon Alan ... really? [Roll Eyes] [Smile]

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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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From: Manchester Uk
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 - posted July 11, 2016 01:25 PM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Obviously from the very same negative, a 16mm frame will of course offer greater resolution than the same print on Super 8mm.
Whether this is truly noticeable on a regular HOME cinema screen, is debatable. I've certainly no complaints screening on a 10ft diagonal 16:9 screen filling its width for scope prints and its depth for flat prints.
All later decent quality prints taken from a decent negative, look bloody brilliant to my eyes!

But just for clarity Tom, stereo sound or magnetic sound isn't an option for 16mm feature film viewing.
16mm uses an optical mono track.
Magnetic 16mm films are very rare.

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Paul Adsett
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 - posted July 11, 2016 04:34 PM      Profile for Paul Adsett     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I think we should consider the overall sensory impact of each format. To me, the availability of stereo sound prints (original and re-recorded) adds a huge plus to the super 8mm column. I remember when I first got my super 8 scope print of Grease from Derann, I was amazed at the print quality, but the mono sound seemed flat and dull, particularly for a musical film. So I re-recorded the film, using my Eumig 926GL, and simply could not believe how much a high quality stereo track added to the enjoyment and impact of the film. That is something that a 16mm print, for all its great definition, is simply incapable of supplying.
Some might say that sound quality is every bit, or perhaps more important, than picture quality, as long as the PQ is perfectly acceptable.

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Garth Tiffen
Junior
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From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
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 - posted July 11, 2016 11:59 PM      Profile for Garth Tiffen   Email Garth Tiffen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Brand new to both the forum, and collecting Super 8, so greetings from Northern Canada! For myself, as a child in the mid-late 60's I remember a mink farm salesman (of all things) coming to our house setting up a projector, and showing my parents his film reel /pitch (they didn't bite incidentally)...at some point his film broke, and he left me a piece of the film with a few frames that he left out during the splice. Anyway, I was hooked! This was magic to me....as I got older my grandma would occasionally show us old home moves (8mm I believe, and sure wish I still had those)...as an acting student at college around 80/81, I used my grandpas old Kodak 8mm camera to shoot some student projects, ...and then as the years passed I moved to videotape of course and eventually all the other physical media..(still collect laserdisc to this day)....however recently I remembered renting a library copy of the movie Logans run from the public library, on super 8 in the late 70's and decided to search for that on EBay, as I collect things from that movie...I found it, then of course had to find a projector, and have been bit by the bug now!! I have a few other films on the way and glad to have found this forum!! Tonight I ran a Disneyland souvenir film, that I think is from the 60's that I found on the weekend, and the magic and nostalgia was back!
Thanks for adding me to your group!

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Graham Ritchie
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 - posted July 12, 2016 02:55 AM      Profile for Graham Ritchie   Email Graham Ritchie   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Welcome to the forum Garth.

That was an interesting story [Smile]

Just be careful buying prints these days, a lot of them have now faded a bit [Frown]

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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From: Manchester Uk
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 - posted July 12, 2016 03:17 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
But none of the later LPP, Agfa or Fuji Acetate or better still, Ester stuff!

Nor will any of it anytime soon!

You pay more for it all than the equivalent 70's mass produced titles, but well worth the extra by comparison.

Also many of the 70's Walton titles are still holding up very well indeed given that Walton choose the best stock of the day for stability, so these also, are well worth keeping a look out for. Expect considerably more grain though from these prints than the later Derann type prints or similar.

Enjoy Garth, there is still plenty to go at yet for many many years to come! [Wink]

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Graham Ritchie
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 - posted July 12, 2016 03:42 AM      Profile for Graham Ritchie   Email Graham Ritchie   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Garth

Just something I forgot to ask, what happened to your family 8mm films? All that Kodachrome Standard 8 films from the 60s would still look fantastic, if you can find them. There are plenty of Standard 8 projectors around that can still screen them. [Cool]

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Garth Tiffen
Junior
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From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
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 - posted July 12, 2016 07:33 AM      Profile for Garth Tiffen   Email Garth Tiffen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks for the welcome guys:) ....sadly my family movies are long gone...my dad had them transferred to video tape some years ago, then disposed of the films, sadly...I wish I still had them, as they were transferred to some pretty crappy VHS tape at the time, so I'm sure resolution was lost in the process. And thanks for the heads up re: the quality of mass produced 70's super 8....as those are the ones that I remembered lusting after as a kid and teenager in spinner racks at bigger retail stores like Hudsons Bay and Eatons, here in Canada, those are the ones I've chased....so great info! I've already learned a lot just pursuing the forums, so looking forward to now tracking down some quality prints!

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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From: Manchester Uk
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 - posted July 12, 2016 11:04 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
You should be extremely pleased Garth once you get to see some of the highest quality prints available to the gauge.

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Paul Adsett
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 - posted July 12, 2016 11:08 AM      Profile for Paul Adsett     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Garth's story of his family transferring all their precious 8mm films to tape or disc, and then disposing of the original film, and later losing or being unable to play the video record, is sadly commonplace.

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The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
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Phil Murat
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 - posted July 12, 2016 12:40 PM      Profile for Phil Murat   Email Phil Murat   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi,

From my side, 95% Super 8 , 5% 16mm.......

"Super 8" was a good "Balance" between Weight/Storage and Picture Quality, providing prints were done from "Top" Negatives, once more.

Now , the idea is to keep "rare titles" which are not produced on DVD, so what DVD come to complete the SUPER 8 library.
Concerning Disney's "Silly Symphonies" to be note the DVD offers more titles that you can find in Super 8 world , keeping an interesting quality.
Same thing for "Classical" Mickey, Donald, Pluto's shorts (before 80's) , DVD Colectors, easy to find for 20 Euros.

Concerning, shooting with super 8, the Film Stock rate price/mn is not reasonable anymore : this is like running a Ferrari with a rare Gasoline around 1000E / Ltr

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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From: Manchester Uk
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 - posted July 12, 2016 02:09 PM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Correct Phil.
The price to run a silent camera now is currently extortionate and totally non viable now from my own point of view.
£50 for 3 minutes of silent film makes even Deranns 4x 600ft Scope film of Star Wars seem like a bargain when it occasionally surfaces!

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Douglas Warren
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 - posted July 12, 2016 02:55 PM      Profile for Douglas Warren   Email Douglas Warren   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Welcome to the group Garth! What Andrew says is sadly true regarding fade on many of the mass produced Super-8 digest titles from the 1970's. This is my dominant category for collecting in this gauge,so it can be hit or miss with color on these releases. I wish I could (but cannot) afford features in Super-8, especially the later issues with superior film stock. For me it all comes down to budget vs product. Heck, I still collect (and enjoy) the old B & W / Silent reels produced by Ken Films, Castle Films,etc!

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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From: Manchester Uk
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 - posted July 12, 2016 03:03 PM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
As you know Douglas, there are still many good prints to be found from Walton etc in colour for sensible money plus many classic titles on B/ W stock that still look excellent.

It's only the very later prints which can be expensive / very expensive.

There's plenty to go around still for all tastes and budgets,just try obtaining a couple of screenshots for any title you may be interested in Garth and don't accept any lame excuses such as "no projector to test it on" when parting with your hard earned! [Wink]

You should always be able to SEE what you're paying for before buying any item to an extent, and not just the box!!

[ July 12, 2016, 05:32 PM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Douglas Warren
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From: West Chester, OH, USA
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 - posted July 12, 2016 03:22 PM      Profile for Douglas Warren   Email Douglas Warren   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Very true Andrew and it's a shame that the film stock used on most USA prints was the dreaded Eastman stock. Of course these being consumer products of their era,they weren't made with long term quality in mind. Alas,this is true of most modern consumer products of today. But that's another subject entirely and off topic of course [Smile] Ditto Garth on all of Andrew's advice!

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Turn out the lights,the movie is starting!

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