8mm Forum: Replacing Beaulieu 708 EL Arm Friction Washer...Again!

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Topic: Replacing Beaulieu 708 EL Arm Friction Washer...Again!

Rob Young.
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1633
From: Cheshire, U.K.
Registered: Dec 2003

posted October 15, 2016 07:29 AM

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So today I'm replacing the friction washer on the feed arm of my 708 EL yet again...

I replaced the original felt washer on the take-up arm many years ago now with a cheap leather washer form a local DIY store and it has been perfect ever since.

A couple of years ago, the felt feed arm washer started to fall apart and I replaced it with another leather washer from the same DIY place, although this time it was black in colour as opposed to cream (??!)

Anyway, it lasted a few months then became sticky, as if the surface had worn down and was causing the arm spindle to stick, so I replaced it again...lasted a few months again and same thing...

So now, I'm trying a new washer.

Only problem is it's polypropylene, so making it stick to the metal support is...tricky...

I'm trying super glue with primer for polypropylene...

Should be a good, long lasting solution...IF the glue sticks it!

[Roll Eyes]

[Roll Eyes]

[Eek!]

[Confused]

[Confused]

[Confused]

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted October 15, 2016 07:58 AM

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Nice fix Rob!

Let us know how you get along Pal. [Wink]

[Wink]

It may prove a little tricky Rob as Polyurethane or polypropylene is notably a bugger to get it to stick to anything let alone metal.

Good luck with it though mate and I know of a few substances you could try if you're struggling to get it to bond adequately.

What I would suggest if I may, is to give the surface to be stuck to the metal backplate a "key" first by using some Emery cloth or a file first to rough it up a little.

--------------------
"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Rob Young.
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1633
From: Cheshire, U.K.
Registered: Dec 2003

posted October 15, 2016 08:14 AM

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Yep, Andrew, it's amazing that even in this day and age that we still can't get two different human-made surfaces to stick together reliably!! [Razz]

[Razz]

I did give the back of the washer a gentle rubbing with mild sand paper before cleaning down everything and making the bond.

It's setting now and I'm giving it until Monday as the first glue I used was an extra strong flexible bonding for plastics of all types, for use under extreme heat / cold / flexible duress...after 24 hours the washer just fell off...mentioning no brand names! [Roll Eyes]

[Roll Eyes]

Will let you know how I get on...Halloween shows are immanent!!

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted October 15, 2016 08:21 AM

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Great stuff Rob and that stuff UPVC window fitters use to stick stuff in their line of work, is very very good indeed if all else fails Rob.

Now you just need to find a double glazing fitter down at your local! [Smile]

[Smile]

[Wink]

Everyone knows one of these guys! Ha ha

--------------------
"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Rob Young.
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1633
From: Cheshire, U.K.
Registered: Dec 2003

posted October 15, 2016 08:28 AM

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Thanks, Andrew, I'll report back next week when hopefully it will have stuck and I've had the chance to test it...otherwise I'll take your advice and find a UPVC glazier for a quote! Lol!

Would still be cheaper than a washer from Wittners!

[Smile]

[Smile]

[Smile]

[Smile]

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Kevin Clark
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 978
From: Bapchild, Kent, UK
Registered: May 2004

posted October 15, 2016 09:07 AM

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I'm not sure if this would help Rob but I have a large piece of 2mm thick nitrile rubber based cork sheet I use for Elmo friction pads and I would be happy to post you and Andrew some to try on the Beaulieus.

Kevin

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Paul Browning
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From: West Midlands United Kingdom
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posted October 15, 2016 09:12 AM

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Perhaps the latter leather was shammy, not as high quality. A visit to your local shoe repairer may have the solution ( if you pardon the pun) to glueing leather to other items. You could get horse glue many years ago, that would stick most things to anything, it stank to high heaven though when you melted it, but it was incredible stuff. I would look for an old leather belt for a source material, the local charity shop can help you maybe ?.

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted October 15, 2016 09:19 AM

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Thanks Kevin, yes please. I'd like a small sample piece of your cork substance to be able to try come the time.

I can PayPal you whatever it costs thanks Kevin to send and for the material itself.

I have to say, aside from having to change out the front (obviously doh! ) reel spindle when I first got the projector, I haven't had any mither with any of the reel arm components since.
I hope Rob secures a long term fix on his with this as this really ought not to be an issue on these from what I gather.

[ October 15, 2016, 03:50 PM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]

--------------------
"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Phil Murat
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From: Villeneuve St Georges, France
Registered: Dec 2015

posted October 15, 2016 09:40 AM

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Hello Beaulieu's Fans,

As I remember, the big "soft" washer (on the still bracket) was made with felt material on my projectors.

Normaly , I have deleted these parts for the one I ugraded the rear spindle.
And that works as it is without any problem (no extra axial play).

I will check that again

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Kevin Clark
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 978
From: Bapchild, Kent, UK
Registered: May 2004

posted October 15, 2016 09:46 AM

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I will send you some Andrew no problem post wise it should just need a standard letter stamp.

Just a thought - I never had these problems with Beaulieus when I used them but I used to put a smear of LM grease onto the cork pads when fitted to give them a small amount of friction reducing slip - just a smear mind - dab on then wipe off with a cloth. It might not mention it in the service manuals but it works well on Elmos and Eikis so why not Beaulieus?

Also using manual rewinds instead of the projector to rewind films will reduce wear to everything mechanical: gears, belts, motors and friction pads etc.

Kevin

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Rob Young.
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1633
From: Cheshire, U.K.
Registered: Dec 2003

posted October 16, 2016 03:27 AM

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Thanks for the offer, Kevin, very generous. I'll let you know how I get on sticking the new washer on...I'm going to let it cure today and try it tomorrow...if it drops off I'll be in touch!! (also, yes, rewind duties are now on the work bench, so it hasn't even had that much stress).

Yes, the original washers were felt on my machine, but disintegrated and clogged up the spindle; mind you that took about 20 years to happen from new (I bought it second hand in about 2000)

As I said, the cheap replacement leather washer on the rear has lasted 16 years, so the new leather washers I bought obviously aren't up to it or are, as suggested by Paul, the wrong material for the job.

Typical Beaulieu, that something so simply can put the projector out of action!

[Roll Eyes]

[Roll Eyes]

Here's hoping the plastic one sticks as it should last forever if it does!!! [Big Grin]

[Big Grin]

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted October 16, 2016 03:32 AM

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Rob, have you tried actually replacing it with felt so far?

--------------------
"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Rob Young.
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1633
From: Cheshire, U.K.
Registered: Dec 2003

posted October 16, 2016 04:49 AM

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No, Andrew - I believe Beaulieu modified to leather washers as well, so it "felt" like a retrograde step. Lol...tumble weed [Smile]

[Smile]

Fingers crossed for testing tomorrow...

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Rob Young.
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1633
From: Cheshire, U.K.
Registered: Dec 2003

posted October 17, 2016 02:53 AM

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Success! It's stuck.

All back together and working well...hopefully never have to change it again.

Time to run some films... [Smile]

[Smile]

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted October 17, 2016 04:02 AM

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Well done Rob! [Smile]

[Smile]

[Smile]

Take note of that Superglue. It must surely be one of the better ones on the market as many I've tried stick well to begin with but then in no time at all, come apart again!

We used to buy in loctite Super bonder (495) with a blue label to specifically glue o-rings together and that stuff never failed us once, so hopefully that will be the end of this issue.

Henkel products are all professional products used extensively in manufacturing throughout industry, so you stand a very good chance of a lasting repair this time with this i'd say Rob.

--------------------
"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Graham Ritchie
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posted October 17, 2016 01:17 PM

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Rob

It might be time to buy an Elmo [Big Grin]

[Big Grin]

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted October 17, 2016 01:20 PM

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Are you sure? Lol!!

No Prints were harmed in the making of this post! [Big Grin]

[Big Grin]

[Wink]

Take a look at the other forum Graham as to how well your expertise advice would fair Rob here!!

[ October 19, 2016, 06:20 PM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]

--------------------
"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Rob Young.
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1633
From: Cheshire, U.K.
Registered: Dec 2003

posted October 18, 2016 12:19 PM

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Graham, I have my trusty ST1200HD which honestly has demanded no less attention over the years!! [Big Grin]

[Big Grin]

[Big Grin]

[Big Grin]

Also have owned three GS1200's and still have my Chinon which was my Christmas present aged 10, two Eumigs and two 16mm Eikis...and not enough room!!

Well...I went to start my show yesterday with the Beaulieu back in position, feeling all pleased with myself...and...the take-up suddenly wasn't turning...groan...

I went though a full repair of the take-up mechanism a couple of years ago so couldn't believe it...anyway it started to turn slowly and then was fine, but I'll have to open it back up and have a look...nothing worse than the fear of the take-up failing and your precious print unspooling all over the carpet!

That said, reel one of "The Reptile" looked great... [Roll Eyes]

[Roll Eyes]

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Paul Browning
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posted October 18, 2016 12:57 PM

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This is an interesting article Rob, if a little frustrating for you. I have one of these machines so happy to help you in any way because it will benefit all of us. I guess bill would be the short cut here, but I applaud your tenacity. I have not looked at mine to see what's going on here, perhaps I will now. I know you can get clutch friction lining, because companies still do this service, but that would be dangerous, although I don't think the lining is asbestos now, a need to find something similar is important to put this to bed for good. Was the original drive disc actually felt ?. How good would it be to adjust it externally like that of a drill/driver with a torque setting, which is a ratchet type mechanism, could we use one of those, maybe ?.

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted October 18, 2016 01:22 PM

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You're certainly going through it Rob with your reel holders here. Both of them it'd seem.

I hope the front one stays a reliable fix now and if it were myself, while there's still a chance, for what it's worth, I'd just enquire at Wittners to see if they have a new clutch assembly for you now.

If you're having to revisit these things over again, something must be not quite right somewhere within the assembly.

They really are not renowned for playing up generally Rob, this part of the machine.

The felt btw Paul was used only as to provide a little resistance to the rear surface of the gear wheel on the backside of the spindle hub via the spring as seen above in Robs photograph.
It prevents the film from randomly unwinding during projection.

It isn't part of the actual clutch assembly for the spindles.
The felt is used at the top end of the reel holder assembly, the clutch mechanism is at the bottom end. They are joined together by a toothed drive belt.

--------------------
"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Rob Young.
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1633
From: Cheshire, U.K.
Registered: Dec 2003

posted October 19, 2016 05:19 AM

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Thanks for the support guys - makes me feel a bit better!

http://8mmforum.film-tech.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=009823

Here was my fix for the take-up; I really never expected to have any more trouble with it....

Will open it up this weekend for a look...

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted October 19, 2016 06:09 AM

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Yes I remember Rob.

I was little surprised myself to hear you were still receiving trouble from the clutch given the time, effort and excellent work you put into it. [Confused]

[Confused]

As said, this really ought to be one part on these machines that causes very little, if any, problems.

There certainly hasn't been many reported historically from all i have read within owners reports and conversation with these guys.

It remains a mystery Rob for the time being but I hope you get to root cause soon on this one and get back to enjoying your lovely machine in all of it's glory again, hassle free! [Wink]

[Wink]

--------------------
"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Rob Young.
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1633
From: Cheshire, U.K.
Registered: Dec 2003

posted November 14, 2016 01:23 PM

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Just thought I'd bring this topic back in case anyone else suffers from these problems with their Beaulieu.

Success! The rear washer has now also been replaced with a polypropylene version, the take-up tension has also been adjusted and now take-up is again steady and consistent.

A little time, care, a Beaulieu service manual and a cheap yet appropriate washer saves the day once again! [Smile]

[Smile]

I feel now like a reluctant expert on the Beaulieu arm mechanisms!!! Lol!

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted November 15, 2016 03:14 PM

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I am pleased to hear you are now up and running again Rob! 😊😊

I hope it lasts a long long time for you now Rob regarding this troublesome point for you.

--------------------
"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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David Hardy
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From: Johnshaven Village , Montrose, Scotland
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posted November 17, 2016 05:00 AM

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Here is my advice.
Pack in film and go all digital.
Less hassles in the long run.

Only joking of course.
I hope all goes well. [Wink]

[Wink]

[Wink]

[Wink]

--------------------
" My equipment's more important than your rats. "

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