8mm Forum


  
my profile | my password | search | faq | register | forum home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» 8mm Forum   » 8mm Forum   » External speaker question (Page 1)

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!  
This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2 
 
Author Topic: External speaker question
Brad Kimball
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1171
From: Highland Mills, NY USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted January 18, 2017 09:21 AM      Profile for Brad Kimball   Email Brad Kimball   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
External jacks are normally 8 ohms. What contemporary speaker would work? Being that projector external speakers are no longer manufactured, would computer speakers be acceptable?

 |  IP: Logged

Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted January 18, 2017 09:26 AM      Profile for Steve Klare   Email Steve Klare   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Anything also labeled 8 Ohms would work fine, as long as the power rating is at least as high as the projector audio power capability.

This is a nice number: 8 Ohms is the most common impedance around.

Beware the temptation to put two 8 ohm speakers in parallel: your 8 ohms now becomes 4 and pretty soon your projector's amplifier output stage will become a crime scene! (...the crime being "arson"!)

I think the typical computer speaker has it's own amplifier and isn't meant to be driven by the already amplified speaker output of a projector. There are often line level "aux" outputs that should do the job. (You will need adapters...)

--------------------
All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

 |  IP: Logged

Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted January 18, 2017 10:06 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
You use the word contemporary there Brad.

That's exactly it!
Try to find speaker cabinets made around the era your projector was manufactured in really.

Many modern day tremendous loudspeaker systems do not respond well to these old signals. Far too much frequency response for our old analogue signals and certainly for any snap crackle or pop!

You can easily do much damage to decent modern speaker systems and HC Amplifiers alike.

--------------------
"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

 |  IP: Logged

Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted January 18, 2017 10:35 AM      Profile for Steve Klare   Email Steve Klare   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Other than Rice Crispies I've never had snap, crackle and pop.

Is this a common problem with your machines?

Truth be told, a modern speaker is a little too sensitive for old movie tracks, there is this frequency response called the Academy Curve to remove all the nasties that a modern speaker doesn't care about at all. Their feeuency response is usually better than a lot of the ears that are listening!

-but, this would still sound better than the little speaker inside the machine, and it's also the chance to have the sound come out by the screen where it's supposed to be.

It's a step up. After that you start to use an external amp and some sort of equalizer to clean up the sound. Eventually you have a sound system NASA would envy.

-still have to start somewhere. You won't get there just hooking up a speaker, but by the same token you will never get anywhere just running on the internal.

--------------------
All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

 |  IP: Logged

Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted January 18, 2017 10:38 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
If you've ever projected an optical soundtrack film, you will be all too familiar with Snap, Crackle or Pop Steve! [Big Grin] [Big Grin] [Wink]

Newer speakers faithfully reproduce sounds well beyond what the old ones did.
This is to great advantage when fed a noiseless digital source, but great detriment when fed a relatively crude analogue signal.

Old speakers still sound amazingly good though it has to be said, with either vintage hi fi or our films soundtracks.

--------------------
"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

 |  IP: Logged

Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted January 18, 2017 10:41 AM      Profile for Steve Klare   Email Steve Klare   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Haven't had that pleasure so far.

My next step is connecting a video projector into a spare mixer channel.

-onward and upward...

--------------------
All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

 |  IP: Logged

Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted January 18, 2017 10:43 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Surely you must have at least one Optical print Steve????

Even this wouldn't sound great through a pair of B&W's

https://vimeo.com/189454740

Not a lot wrong with this though I'd say for S8 Mag snd.

--------------------
"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

 |  IP: Logged

Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted January 18, 2017 10:48 AM      Profile for Steve Klare   Email Steve Klare   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Nope.

I am strictly magnetic sound. I've very rarely run into a must-have print that was optical, so I've avoided going that way.

I would imagine if I did, my mixer would clip the cereal sounds and protect the rest of the system, no?

--------------------
All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

 |  IP: Logged

Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted January 18, 2017 10:51 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
You do surprise me Steve, especially as a devout ST1200 man.

to be fair, there has been some great titles out there on the optical track that sadly never made it onto Magnetic.

Especially if you like your 80's films.

I'm currently reinvesting in the necessary hardware just for my optical film collection. This is despite the fact that most are now showing just a little fade at the very least.

--------------------
"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

 |  IP: Logged

Mike Newell
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 826
From: United Kingdom
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted January 18, 2017 11:05 AM      Profile for Mike Newell   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Funny I always stuck to magnetic as well. The only optical I had was Little Shop of Horrors that a fellow collector had already striped and re recorded. The only other titles that tempted me were Remo Pale a Rider and Woman in Red. Sound was always a big issue with optical prints. You might have been able to get them for £60 or £70 from Derann at the time but some were good but a lot were total duds and there was no way of knowing until you projected all the way through.

 |  IP: Logged

Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted January 18, 2017 11:15 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
They arn't as bad as all that Mike. Just a little more noise than you'd ordinarily like as a result of the methods used to get to the sound to amplification stages.

A little less low frequency range also, but you can compensate for this with equalization.

I'm hoping the SH 30 fairs much better in this dept for both sound quality as well as Wow & flutter.

In theory, it should do as it is an electronic driven m/c with pulse sync capabilities. Kind on film too I believe, which always helps. [Wink]

--------------------
"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

 |  IP: Logged

Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted January 18, 2017 11:21 AM      Profile for Steve Klare   Email Steve Klare   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It just the case of making a leap.

Every so often I've run into a film on a sale list I'd really like that is optical, and I ask myself "Is it worth buying an entire projector to watch this film?" and I answer "no." and move on.

I'm not very big on features either: I have maybe 20 in a collection of 300+ titles. I would imagine this is where you'd find the most optical prints, right?

Typically my own shows come around 10:00PM. (The rest of the house has retired and I am free to rule my domain!)

-a 200 footer and a 400 footer
-A pair of 400 footers
-Maybe a 600 footer

(-800 feet and up: strictly Saturday, Sunday and Holidays!)

Life being what it is, I usually can't watch a feature in a sitting, it just winds up being a series of shorts on different nights anyway. (Which is actually kind of nice!)

-so if Brad doesn't have optical sound either, he should be fine with a modern speaker!

--------------------
All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

 |  IP: Logged

Graham Ritchie
Film God

Posts: 4001
From: New Zealand
Registered: Feb 2006


 - posted January 18, 2017 11:58 AM      Profile for Graham Ritchie   Email Graham Ritchie   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Brad go to any junk store and look for a single 7inch 8ohm speaker in a nice wooden cabinet. If you have a meter take it along and cross the speaker wires with it just to double check its 8ohms and not less, there should be plenty around and sound fine, just remember its a single speaker in its cabinet that you really want. [Smile]

 |  IP: Logged

Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted January 18, 2017 12:02 PM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Understood Steve, but in my own experiences, my Kef iQ speakers weren't big on even mag snd fed through the Denon HC Amp.

In fact nowadays I avoid it all cost since ruining a tweeter even at reasonable levels.

This was when watching a Derann feature with a relatively decent track like the one I placed here above.

--------------------
"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

 |  IP: Logged

Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted January 18, 2017 12:10 PM      Profile for Steve Klare   Email Steve Klare   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
When I built the interface between my projectors and my stereo I got my share of high frequency nastiness: not very appealing. Each channel has a series resistor anyway (short circuit protection), so I added in a ceramic capacitor and rolled it off above about 12 kHz.

-all is well.

Seems to me every time I turned the thing on I found something like this to tweak. After a while it paid off. In the heat of battle, every so often my wife would yell down the stairs "What are you DOING?!" (-Especially after I found the full, downright spectacular magnitude of that raw ground loop!)

Can't make an omelet with breaking a few eggs!

--------------------
All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

 |  IP: Logged

Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted January 18, 2017 12:14 PM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
it probably could and should have been avoided by using my equalizer, but on the day, I simply couldn't be bothered setting it all up that way.

i paid the price later though through my lazy ways.

I simply stick with 80's hi fi stuff now if I want extension speakers. It sounds better to my ears with far less nasties,and keeps the home cinema gear good for digital audio, TV & Video Projection purposes.

--------------------
"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

 |  IP: Logged

Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted January 18, 2017 12:29 PM      Profile for Steve Klare   Email Steve Klare   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It was a project and I had fun!

One of the nice things about it is I finally got to use all the stuff I've learned at work over the years for myself! (That's how it started out when I was a teenager...)

I added a potentiometer in there to exactly adjust out the hum from the ground loop . I turned the pot and it went down, down...down and all of a sudden it was just...gone!

-I'd buy a ticket to get that feeling again!

--------------------
All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

 |  IP: Logged

Rob Young.
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1633
From: Cheshire, U.K.
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted January 18, 2017 01:58 PM      Profile for Rob Young.     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hmm...

Brad is asking what type of speaker to plug into his projector amplifier and on that question, I have to go along with Graham and his advice.

As stated, most computer speakers would NOT work as they are "active" and have their own internal amp. NOT a good idea.

Back in the day of course many companies, such as Craven Instruments here in the UK made very solid single driver cabinets for use with 8mm projectors, so I understand where you are coming from Andrew. Well built, but with "restrained" frequency response which lent themselves well to general 8mm magnetic recordings.

Plug in and play...and certainly better than the speaker in the projector casing.

But, as Brad is asking, what type of modern speaker can be plugged directly into an 8mm sound amplifier 8 ohm output...???

Hmm...

Of course, the better option (which I think Steve and Andrew are talking about) is to take a line level output (or just maybe a lesser pre-amp output, as with an Elmo ST1200-HD headphone output) from the projector to an external amplifier and let that handle whatever speaker system you have attached.

Brad, what projector are you using may we ask?

If you can take a pre-amp output from your projector then you have a world of EQ and great sounding, er, sound opportunities. Any damage then incurred would be down to your amp & speaker set-up.

Personally, I have always achieved sound re-production from 8mm kit which never fails to amaze even myself as I know it is really pushing the boundaries.

Although I suspect we may have some discussion on this, which is more than welcome! [Smile]

 |  IP: Logged

Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted January 18, 2017 02:14 PM      Profile for Steve Klare   Email Steve Klare   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'd imagine you could plug a set of computer speakers into (for example) an Elmo ST Aux. output, but for one thing only the left channel would have any sound: it's what you get when you plug a stereo plug into monaural jack. You'd need an adapter in between to connect mono "out" to right and left "in". You'd also need to remember that this Aux it controlled by the machine's volume knob and the two volume adjusts would need to find some balance between them.

When it worked it wouldn't gain you a lot: you need something with some cone diameter to get that bass going!

Super-8 sound has some amazing bass tones which you will never hear until you go up in speaker size.

What's also interesting is raising the bass seems to mellow the sound. I'm sure I'm running many more watts these days, but I get less complaints than when it was through the projector speakers.

I ask my wife "Did you hear my sound last night?" She says "-no." and I make a note to pour on a little more coal next time!

What would be nice is to find some speakers with beautiful, old cabinets. You might need to fix them up, but they'd lend some atmosphere to the room.

--------------------
All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

 |  IP: Logged

Rob Young.
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1633
From: Cheshire, U.K.
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted January 18, 2017 02:23 PM      Profile for Rob Young.     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Indeed, Steve, so with an Elmo ST-1200, as you know, you need to take the two separate track monitor outputs to an external amp.

Then you need EQ, and then some POWER as those outputs are low.

Personally, I never had a real issue making my own shielded cables and whilst the output is low, a decent amp always seemed to cope.

Back in the day, The Lion King or Raiders of the Lost Ark literally made the floor boards shake (no kidding) whilst also providing great clarity stereo (with a little EQ balancing from Derann's, er, slightly tonally different tracks!).

Of course the Elmo was sometimes prone to wow, which could ruin the mood, something the Beaulieu doesn't suffer from.

On a re-recorded stereo print, the Elmo could even attempt Dolby surround. Wowza!

EDIT: I've run my Elmo through a Musical Fidelity Class A with Linn Helix speakers back in the day and...whoa! It even needed bass cut!!

Now the super 8 all runs through a Yamaha 5.1 amp with B&W speakers and a Krell sub.

Sounds great and I hope to soon upgrade the amp!

 |  IP: Logged

Brian Fretwell
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1785
From: London, UK
Registered: Jun 2014


 - posted January 18, 2017 02:26 PM      Profile for Brian Fretwell   Email Brian Fretwell   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The main trouble with using high power multi drive loudspeakers for this is over running the amplifier and causing the output to clip. This gives a square wave output and that has high frequency components that might damage a coil tweeter (which has a much lower power upper limit than the other units.

Also be careful with just using a meter to check the impedance as that is its matching for AC and will show lower as the meter normally uses DC. I have just tested a 8ohm speaker with a meter and got a reading of 6 ohms.

I am actually using a B&H 16mm speaker with my 8mm projector and that works well.

 |  IP: Logged

Rob Young.
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1633
From: Cheshire, U.K.
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted January 18, 2017 02:34 PM      Profile for Rob Young.     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Indeed, Brian, which gets us back on topic as to what kind of modern speaker we could safely plug into the DIN socket on the side of our 8mm projectors and get good, safe sound...

Steve, "What's also interesting is raising the bass seems to mellow the sound"...

Indeed, the properties of EQ masking! LOL! Don't get me started on early Dolby Digital!!! [Smile] [Smile] [Smile]

 |  IP: Logged

Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted January 18, 2017 02:56 PM      Profile for Steve Klare   Email Steve Klare   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'll have to say: this is as thoroughly as we've ever answered a question here!

-Brad?

...Brad???!!!


I think the consensus here is find one simple, cheap old 8 ohm speaker, plug it into the DIN socket and see where it takes you. (BTW: Steve Osborne sells the plugs...)

The first time I tried this I learned about chatter, but that's a story for another day!

(-You start people talking about sound...!)

--------------------
All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

 |  IP: Logged

Tom Spielman
Master Film Handler

Posts: 339
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA
Registered: Apr 2016


 - posted January 18, 2017 05:36 PM      Profile for Tom Spielman   Email Tom Spielman   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Steve: Yes, the journey is as important as the destination when you're talking about hobbies. The process of learning and the feeling of accomplishment can be very rewarding. Which is why right now, I'm enjoying film over digital for some things. I like developing the film even though it is far from the most convenient way to capture an image.

Will I still enjoy it a year or two from now? Perhaps not. Or it could move in another direction. Maybe I'll become interested in medium and large formats. And I still have a goal of developing my own Super 8 film. It will never replace replace digital video for me, but I think it will be something I'll do for special occasions and projects.

If I ever got into projecting sound films I could see myself doing something like you have, though my knowledge of audio isn't nearly what yours is.

 |  IP: Logged

Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted January 18, 2017 06:28 PM      Profile for Steve Klare   Email Steve Klare   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
When I started out messing around with this the results were on the low side of absolutely awful!

You do, you learn!

Strange accomplishment too: You really can't tell anyone about it!

I tell my friends outside work I busted my ground loop, they say "Ground?...Loop?"

I tell my friends at work I straightened out my projector audio, they say "...Projector??"

--------------------
All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

 |  IP: Logged



All times are Central
This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2 
 
   Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic    next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:

Visit www.film-tech.com for free equipment manual downloads. Copyright 2003-2019 Film-Tech Cinema Systems LLC

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.3.1.2