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Author Topic: Kodak's new super 8 camera
Bill Phelps
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1477
From: USA
Registered: Jan 2009


 - posted February 07, 2017 03:15 PM      Profile for Bill Phelps     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'm happy about the new camera and the interest in super 8 and it is sad to read all the negative (critical) comments. It's actually quite entertaining. Perhaps those that are angry (unclear) with Kodak can stop the camera from being produced.

Edited in the interest of pleasing forum members

[ February 07, 2017, 04:18 PM: Message edited by: Bill Phelps ]

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Rob Young.
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: Cheshire, U.K.
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 - posted February 07, 2017 03:17 PM      Profile for Rob Young.     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Bill, I'm not sure who is "angry" with Kodak?

I'm not.

Just unclear.

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Bill Phelps
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: USA
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 - posted February 07, 2017 03:21 PM      Profile for Bill Phelps     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Well if you read comments on the you tube videos almost everyone sounds like andy, bitter and wonder why Kodak should even bother. Those comments are a fun read as well.

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Rob Young.
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1621
From: Cheshire, U.K.
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 - posted February 07, 2017 03:23 PM      Profile for Rob Young.     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ok, I'll have a look, any direct links?

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Paul Adsett
Film God

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From: USA
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 - posted February 07, 2017 03:37 PM      Profile for Paul Adsett     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Wow this topic has really taken a negative turn. Surely we can all agree to thank Kodak for bringing back super 8 Ektachrome?
And if you want live sound, you can record it separately, get the film striped, and sync re-record it. Nothing difficult here.

--------------------
The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
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Bill Phelps
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1477
From: USA
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 - posted February 07, 2017 03:56 PM      Profile for Bill Phelps     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Rob, the links are in the first post of this entire thread.

Paul, I'm happy about the news and I support Kodak.

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Rob Young.
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1621
From: Cheshire, U.K.
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted February 07, 2017 04:02 PM      Profile for Rob Young.     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Paul, again, I'm at a loss...why is this taking a negative turn?

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Tom Spielman
Master Film Handler

Posts: 339
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA
Registered: Apr 2016


 - posted February 07, 2017 04:54 PM      Profile for Tom Spielman   Email Tom Spielman   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I don't exactly know who Kodak hopes to sell this camera to. However, if you venture to Pro8mm site, you'll see that they sell re-built cameras that cost anywhere from a few hundred dollars to a couple of thousand.

Some of these cameras have had the gates widened and some have had crystal sync added if they didn't have it in the first place. Pro8mm been selling them for years so presumably there is a market. I couldn't tell you how big it is and couldn't say how being able to buy a new camera from Kodak with more modern features might grow that market.

I do wonder whether there is a large enough market to justify Kodak's investment in this new product. I hope there is. And even though I'm not part of the target market, I hope to benefit from a potentially wider variety of film stocks and perhaps cheaper film and processing.

Dominique, to your earlier comment: Yes, you could certainly have the film striped if you wanted. Some have expressed disappointment that this camera won't capture sound in the traditional way or that Kodak isn't providing striped film that would allow one to use the audio capabilities of a traditional projector. All I'm saying is that they've opted use the space for a wider image instead and so are capturing the audio on an SD card rather than the film.

I've been very wrong before but I don't think users of old projectors are on Kodak's radar. Not with this product. From that standpoint, I understand the disappointment.

My sense of the people in this group though is that film shooters are in the minority and it's mostly film collectors. How many people that currently shoot film are disappointed in the camera?

How many would shoot film again if Kodak had instead created a camera that captured sound magnetically and brought back more reversal stock?

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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From: Manchester Uk
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 - posted February 07, 2017 05:12 PM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
I am absolutely convinced recently, that people have never read any of the past posts and points made here before they comment.

I was beavering away for a few hours on work I have to complete, then you come back and see people saying things like no issue, you can just stripe it and sync it later.

You can't even project the stuff safely let alone Stripe it, as was established this morning!

Please read all that is written before making statements that simply are not the case here.

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Dominique De Bast
Film God

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From: Brussels, Belgium
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 - posted February 07, 2017 05:19 PM      Profile for Dominique De Bast   Email Dominique De Bast   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Andrew, why wouldn't you be able to project a reversal film shoot with the new Kodak camera ? And why wouldn't it possible to stripe it ? The filmstock is the same as the one we use in other cameras and projectors.

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Dominique

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted February 07, 2017 05:22 PM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Dominique, without sounding rude to you my friend, please read all that was concluded earlier today here. [Wink]

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Tom Spielman
Master Film Handler

Posts: 339
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA
Registered: Apr 2016


 - posted February 07, 2017 05:25 PM      Profile for Tom Spielman   Email Tom Spielman   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
You would have to record the audio from the SD card on the stripe in a separate process and you'd lose the wide screen image, but yeah, I don't see why you couldn't do it if that's what you wanted.

It does beg the question as to why you'd choose to use this particular camera if that was the goal. [Wink]

...

Having thought about though, without pre-striped film, you have the same issue with any camera.

Rob, probably not a direct answer to your question but there are still people who shoot Super 8 and others that might be interested if there were modern equipment available and fewer hoops to jump through in order to get a finished product.

I don't think this camera makes sense for the vast majority of either amateurs or professionals. It makes sense for the minority who like the look of film and like working with it. Hopefully it's a sizable enough minority to be sustainable.

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted February 07, 2017 05:39 PM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Tom, it has nothing to do with the striping, though John's earlier suggestion to just have a balance stripe added would be nigh on impossible now from what I see.

Almost certainly, ANY projector would ruin the Max 8 Frame image in no time for the reasons said around 10 hours ago.

That is why it is not fit for purpose so far as traditional methods of viewing the product are concerned.

It would be like New vinyl Albums now being released in a 14" size instead of 12"!

It would render them useless unless you were to listen to them on the new 14" Vinyl 2017 analogue to digital record player!

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Dominique De Bast
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From: Brussels, Belgium
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 - posted February 07, 2017 05:42 PM      Profile for Dominique De Bast   Email Dominique De Bast   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Andrew, I cannot see any message saying it would not be possible to project films shot with the Kodak camera. Some people, including you, thought that striping was no longer available but that was a false information so no problem to have a film postriped if someone wants sound.

--------------------
Dominique

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Tom Spielman
Master Film Handler

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 - posted February 07, 2017 05:44 PM      Profile for Tom Spielman   Email Tom Spielman   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Understood Andrew, but if you shot in a manor that assumed you'd only be projecting a 1.33 image, presumably you wouldn't care what happened to that part of the image outside the window of a standard gate. Any scratches wouldn't matter because you've already put a big stripe through it. [Wink]

Again, I'm not arguing that it would be the most sensible camera choice if that were the case. Max 8, traditional projectors, and magnetic stripes are indeed mutually exclusive, - unless you're willing to sacrifice the "Max" part and treat it as a film with a traditional frame size which is what Dominique is suggesting.

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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From: Manchester Uk
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 - posted February 07, 2017 05:46 PM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Yes but only on Acetate or Poly on Main stripe pasted.

The image will run over the sound heads and pressers Dom.
The image will encroach on the edges of the film gate parts which of course, should never be the case.

Result.. scratched image in no time!
You would see these marks and especially if you ever wanted to actually see the full frame even digitally if needs be.

Wait till it arrives and try it, then hold your frames up to daylight in a window. I bet I am not far off!

Normally only your main stripe or clear plastic travels over these areas. You would never really know what they look like as a result of travelling through these areas of your projectors mechanisms as you would never actually see this area on screen.

That would change now with the image and frame going more or less all the way across the non sprocketed edge.

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Dominique De Bast
Film God

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From: Brussels, Belgium
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 - posted February 07, 2017 05:49 PM      Profile for Dominique De Bast   Email Dominique De Bast   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Tom, it is obvious that if someone shoot to project and not to digitailize, he will not care about the "new" gate size and will stick with the traditonnal one [Smile]

--------------------
Dominique

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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From: Manchester Uk
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 - posted February 07, 2017 05:58 PM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Again, if there were to be choices, no problems.
Trouble is, we are currently not even thought about by the company in any shape or form.

It isn't aimed at us, but then as said a million times already now, who is it aimed at?

Rob's and Graham's points earlier are absolutely spot on.
You may as well just simply cut the middle man out now in this era for what is actually left as analogue from the product in presentation.

the choice is a simple one to my way of thinking..
Do i pay nothing but the equipment cost for pixels or do i pay £60 for 3 minutes of pixels on top of the equipment costs?

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

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From: Long Island, NY, USA
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 - posted February 07, 2017 06:05 PM      Profile for Steve Klare   Email Steve Klare   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Being that the viewfinder is electronic I wonder if the user can choose various aspect ratios to shoot within.

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Dominique De Bast
Film God

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From: Brussels, Belgium
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 - posted February 07, 2017 06:07 PM      Profile for Dominique De Bast   Email Dominique De Bast   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I understand Andrew. Some sound projectors have not the "head remove" facility for projecting silent films. But even if the part of the picture you will never see through your ptojector is scratch, is that really a problem ? I asume few people will digitalize their films a second time after having run them through a projector.

--------------------
Dominique

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted February 07, 2017 06:08 PM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
That hasn't been highlighted in their sales pitch Steve.

Does it even have a viewfinder or just the built in LCD screen to view what you shoot?

LCD screen only to my eyes. Just perfect for those bright sunny days!

Dominique, you can't accept damage to a frame at £60 / 3minutes whether you would see it or not, though I very much do suspect you would always see a permanent green edge down one side of your screen using Max 8 shot film.

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Paul Adsett
Film God

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 - posted February 07, 2017 07:25 PM      Profile for Paul Adsett     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
One question, perhaps worth posing, is whether or not super 8 is still a viable format for casual home movies- the type of film making that was Kodak's bread and butter for decades. If I were a marketing guy working for Kodak, my answer would have to be no- that market is now 100% lost to digital cameras.
So right off the bat any film marketing project has to be aimed at the really dedicated amateur film maker and/or the semi professional user. In today's cinema world that means shooting on film, with digital post processing, and exhibition by digital projection. That's the way its now done and that's the way any film students and semi pros will be doing it from here on in. Kodak's strategy fits perfectly for that market.
And lets be perfectly honest here. Was striped camera film, and the resulting cutting and splicing of striped film in the editing process, ever entirely satisfactory? Was the problem of splicing striped film, without clicks or drop out at the splice, ever really solved? And isn't digital editing so much easier and much more versatile than the old cut and paste of film?
Food for thought.

--------------------
The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted February 07, 2017 07:38 PM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
C.I.R = near perfection Paul.

Seamless in projection if done correctly.

As for the rest, well there simply isn't enough like minded people around anymore.

All too many with deep pockets and short arms quite frankly, when it comes down to the rudimentals of what it takes to shoot and own real film.

No pockets in shrouds as they say!

A fool and his money are easily parted...Yeah Yeah Yeah, yawn.

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

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From: Long Island, NY, USA
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 - posted February 07, 2017 07:48 PM      Profile for Steve Klare   Email Steve Klare   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
There was a time when people shot small gauge because they pretty much had to, but to be involved with 8mm film these days is to be in it for the love of it.

-love has never been, nor should it be a practical matter!

I've shot a number of family movies in the last decade. Yes they are about my family, but they were always about the film too.

(We have a camcorder you know...)

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted February 07, 2017 07:53 PM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
I am pleased to say mine broke years ago! [Big Grin] [Wink]

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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