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Author Topic: Derann Pinocchio Picture Pulsing Problem?
Kevin Clark
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 978
From: Bapchild, Kent, UK
Registered: May 2004


 - posted March 01, 2017 07:54 PM      Profile for Kevin Clark     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
A feature print of Pinocchio I recently purchased from a fellow forum member has a 'pulsing' effect to many scenes where it is noticeable that the picture is pulsing darker then lighter on and off.

I contacted the seller to advise him of this and other issues (more on that later) and he has said that all Derann Pinocchio prints have this pulsing effect as it is from the master material used.

Is this the truth or is the seller being a bit of a 'Pinocchio' himself?

Anyone that has the Derann print of Pinocchio if you have the time to screen it and let me know by replying here it would be greatly appreciated.

Kevin

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Bill Phelps
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1477
From: USA
Registered: Jan 2009


 - posted March 01, 2017 08:01 PM      Profile for Bill Phelps     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have this feature. I got it a few months back but have not screened it yet. I will try to screen it soon and let you know how mine is. I'm a bit behind on my screenings.

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Kevin Clark
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 978
From: Bapchild, Kent, UK
Registered: May 2004


 - posted March 01, 2017 08:09 PM      Profile for Kevin Clark     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Many thanks Bill your help would really be appreciated.

I think we are all similar in buying films then not getting a chance to watch them straight away - unfortunately in my case the seller will not help me as he said the four weeks it took me to get around to watching the print and informing him of my concerns was too long.

Kevin.

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted March 01, 2017 11:43 PM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
I have this print also Kevin.

If there is any strobing effect from lighter to darker scenes to the image, other than that created by a two blade shutter if a person's eyes are sensitive enough to detect this,..then I personally have not noticed this on my print.

To my eyes at least, it's as good as any other Derann Disney print I have albeit from a far older master of course than many of the others.

Snow White is even older and that one can be stunning!
I have an early numbered Collectors edition of SW and I photographed it in detail if you need comparisons, I doubt you'd have any complaints Kevin.

Pinocchio, I've yet to photograph in any detail but I've watched it on many occasions and found it to be perfectly fine for image quality.

--------------------
"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Brian Fretwell
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1738
From: London, UK
Registered: Jun 2014


 - posted March 02, 2017 03:36 AM      Profile for Brian Fretwell   Email Brian Fretwell   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I don't know about this title but in the past Derann and Lone Wolf did sell prints (or just odd reels) cheap that had a fault described as flicker. I have a test print of reel 5 of El Cid that is described as having a very slight flicker.

I believe this was due to problems with the multi faceted prism in the Peterson continuous reduction printer printer used. As far as I know substandard prints were all identified as having this fault when sold.

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Kevin Clark
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 978
From: Bapchild, Kent, UK
Registered: May 2004


 - posted March 02, 2017 05:04 AM      Profile for Kevin Clark     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hello Andrew and Brian (and others by email and messaging) it seems to me the truth is out and indeed I have been royally screwed by a seller purporting to sell stunning mint as new prints for top prices that in this case are really bolted together white box specials!

More details to follow at the weekend as I am away for a day or two now.

Kevin

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Tom Photiou
Film God

Posts: 4798
From: Plymouth U.K
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted March 02, 2017 06:51 AM      Profile for Tom Photiou   Email Tom Photiou   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'm pretty sure the review of this print in the old FFTC was a stunning print with only a very few minor material marks.I dont think they would have sold many of these if they had this problem. [Wink]

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Alan Rik
Film God

Posts: 2211
From: New York City, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted March 02, 2017 08:08 AM      Profile for Alan Rik   Email Alan Rik   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
My print of "Pinocchio" does not have the pulsing effect. Mine was an early Derann release.
Does this happen during the entire film or just a portion? There are scenes inside the whale where the lights do give it a pulsing effect due to the lighting.

[ March 02, 2017, 09:30 AM: Message edited by: Alan Rik ]

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Kevin Clark
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 978
From: Bapchild, Kent, UK
Registered: May 2004


 - posted March 02, 2017 07:09 PM      Profile for Kevin Clark     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thank you Tom, Alan and everyone who contacted me about their Pinocchio prints - I am certain now that the seller has pulled a fast one, sold me not a STUNNING POLY/LPP print at all, and is happy to keep the money (about £650 for the two features) safe in the knowledge as I paid by PayPal Gift (to save HIM fees) there is sweet FA I can do about it financially.

Perhaps he decided to send me rubbish as I negotiated a pre-sale £100 discount on the two features from his original sky high prices only he can say - feel free by the way Mr. Seller to respond here or start a new thread as I can assure you the more this situation becomes public knowledge the deeper a hole you will be digging for yourself future sales wise.

Beware is all I can say Ladies & Gentlemen - my lifelong experience in customer service has taught me the only time you really find the true meaning of friendships, care and true service is when things go wrong and the seller / service agent runs off with your cash as in this case.

I sincerely hope no one else gets the treatment he has given me.

Kevin.

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Bill Phelps
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1477
From: USA
Registered: Jan 2009


 - posted March 02, 2017 07:36 PM      Profile for Bill Phelps     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Well just to report back I just watched my print (mine is made up on 2 1200' spools) and there was some mild pulsating on one scene only, I was watching for it. It is the one where Pinocchio meets Honest John on the way to school, when it gets to the puppet show there is none. That was the only scene that I noticed any. Just so there is no confusion, I obtained my print from a different seller and I was aware of my print being used, not perfect and at a good price. And I also bought it almost a year ago.... boy am I behind on my screenings. So about the pulsating it was noticable in just the one scene on my print lasting a couple minutes perhaps. Kevin, is this the same scene in yours or is there more?

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Lance Alspaugh
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 151
From: Los Angeles, Ca
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted March 02, 2017 09:02 PM      Profile for Lance Alspaugh   Email Lance Alspaugh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hello All,

As an owner of "Pinocchio" purchased from Derann, there is indeed a strobe effect or pulsing effect visible during the Honest John segment. It was not severe enough for us to return the print and we have screened it for a few audiences without complaint.

LA

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Tom Photiou
Film God

Posts: 4798
From: Plymouth U.K
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted March 03, 2017 06:33 AM      Profile for Tom Photiou   Email Tom Photiou   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Not good news there Kevin, was this seller e-bay or forum? (be surprised if it was the later) [Frown]

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Adrian Winchester
Film God

Posts: 2905
From: Croydon, London, UK
Registered: Aug 2004


 - posted March 03, 2017 07:24 AM      Profile for Adrian Winchester   Email Adrian Winchester   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Tom - Kevin said: "A feature print of Pinocchio I recently purchased from a fellow forum member..."

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Adrian Winchester

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Osi Osgood
Film God

Posts: 10125
From: #399R K.O.A. Mountian Home, ID. 83647
Registered: Jul 2005


 - posted March 03, 2017 11:10 AM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage   Email Osi Osgood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
What would cause this "pulsing" effect? it doesn't sound as if it was a negative issue, as not all prints seem to have this problem, so it sounds like something during the pritning process.

Any theories or facts, ladies and Gentlemen?

--------------------
"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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Kevin Clark
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 978
From: Bapchild, Kent, UK
Registered: May 2004


 - posted March 09, 2017 03:36 AM      Profile for Kevin Clark     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Osi - please read Brian's reply above and you will see the facts related to what can go wrong at the printing stage to cause faults like this.

The pulsing is on and off throughout reel two not just one scene.

In addition to this both Pinocchio and Jungle Book from this seller have good sound but really prominent stripe blobs in the picture seen on the right of the screen during projection. Stunning for all the wrong reasons........

And to make things worse the seller tried to blame my equipment - as it's all serviced regularly by Bill P. and side to side gate alignment spot on as you would expect from properly and professionally serviced machines that was a non-starter argument wise.

So in closing please don't be fooled by over glowing seller film descriptions, do watch your prints as soon as received and if at all possible always pay by normal PayPal rather thn Paypal Gift then even if you are screwed in a sale you will at least have some leverage to get your money back.

High prices do not guarantee top quality as I have found out to my great cost.

Kevin

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Phil Murat
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 651
From: Villeneuve St Georges, France
Registered: Dec 2015


 - posted March 09, 2017 04:41 AM      Profile for Phil Murat   Email Phil Murat   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hello Kevin,

I am exactly sharing you position Kevin for all the line.
I rode too Brian's reply. Some items were sold with Well Known defects but on bargain price basis.
I am also afraid to have to face similar problem one day or an other.
As you want you can PM me name of seller just to put it in my "black list" in case you could not solve this sad matter.
You are 100% right to emphasize a High Price is not a Warranty to get a good item.
Hope you get satisfaction at the end.
Hold On Kevin !

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Stuart Reid
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 718
From: Worthing, West Sussex, UK
Registered: Feb 2009


 - posted March 09, 2017 04:44 AM      Profile for Stuart Reid   Email Stuart Reid   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
What's the general consensus about naming and shaming this particular seller if he doesn't make good for Kev?

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted March 09, 2017 05:04 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
I have been delighted so far at least with my print from this seller. Admittedly, I haven't viewed it all the way through yet, but I will be doing at some point today.
So far so good in my particular case is all I can say, though of course, I have great sympathy for Kevin's scenario here and do not feel in his case, this has been particularly well handled at all.

Everybody who has ever dealt with Kevin, knows his word is one to be trusted and equally knows he is a true gentleman in this hobby.

In future, I will be sending extra funding for any films I buy privately via PayPal to cover the commission so they receive the full amount but I get the full protection needed for these expensive items purchased privately.
Using the "family and friends" tab, is now a thing of the past for me.

This is the very first time I have purchased prints from various sellers, only then to not be able to view them for a very long while, front to back. Typically I've viewed them all within a day or two and this post here has made me realize the value in always trying to do so.

Those are my own learnings from Kevin's experience with this lot.

--------------------
"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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David Hardy
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 944
From: Johnshaven Village , Montrose, Scotland
Registered: Jan 2015


 - posted March 09, 2017 05:36 AM      Profile for David Hardy   Email David Hardy   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Its reports like these that makes me feel like packing the
film collecting hobby in for good.

Most frustrating indeed and makes me angry.
You must have one of Derann's 'White Box Specials'.
In other words it has a lab fault.

If you have Video projection at home do this ...
Save yourself a lot of money and bother Kevin and buy the
Blu-Ray transfer. It only costs a few quid off Amazon.

Not only will you get peace of mind but you will also see a
lot more detail than you get on a Super 8mm frame.
Closer to 35mm in fact.
I have it for my granddaughter and it looks and sounds superb. [Wink] [Wink] [Wink]

--------------------
" My equipment's more important than your rats. "

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted March 09, 2017 08:47 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
As said David, many times over, it is wrong to continually inter compare the two mediums.

One is a practical convenience, the other is driven by passion for real film.

We all use digital projectors nowadays. Some people among us have spent thousands on this equipment or even tens of thousands. They are taking that aspect of their interest in film seriously also.
However for the majority of the people who visit the film forums, they also love owning and purchasing film products too.
To continually remind people of the cheaper and more convenient alternative does nothing to either make these guys change their minds or indeed stop loving real film, despite the odd disappointment from time to time.

There arn't too many films I can think of that I own, that I don't also have the DVD of or Blu Ray of it also.
It doesn't stop me ever wanting to find the real film and then actually buying it, even if at times, I have to accept marginally less than a perfect print in this day and age occasionally.

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted March 09, 2017 11:15 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Well I've just this minute finished watching my print from beginning to last frame from this seller.

I can only say in my case at least, it's a perfect print from beginning to end.
Stereo sound is also much much better than on many of these later prints and is the original recorded track by Derann.

It came in my case, with the original box and all leads and tails in tact.

If I'd have bought it new from Derann, I wouldn't have been any happier.

I know this doesn't help Kevin here with any of this, and as said, he has my complete sympathy for his particular scenario, however this proves if nothing else, that not all prints are anything but as described.

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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David Hardy
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 944
From: Johnshaven Village , Montrose, Scotland
Registered: Jan 2015


 - posted March 09, 2017 12:12 PM      Profile for David Hardy   Email David Hardy   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I take your point Andrew but its still the same movie on any
format.

Watching it on film does not add anything or take away a thing
from the overall narrative.

Its all a subjective aesthetic value judgement if you enjoy
it more on film than digital and an illusory one at that.

Which begs the questions do you actually still enjoy the movie
the same if it is projected via digital video on a big screen ?

Or are you more in love with the means of seeing the movie rather
than the ends of seeing the actual movie on a big screen ?

[Smile] [Smile] [Smile]

--------------------
" My equipment's more important than your rats. "

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted March 09, 2017 12:40 PM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Yes David, I thoroughly enjoy my digital screening sessions of a decent modern movie, just as I loved watching a Disney feature this afternoon on my cine projector.

They are completely different experiences but I enjoy the movie projected either way.

There are younger people than I that seemingly gain exactly the same level of enjoyment watching a movie on their phones!

Not for me, but then I accept, we are all very very different individuals.
Common decency is the only denominator I expect from everyone,...foolishly at times.

--------------------
"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Osi Osgood
Film God

Posts: 10125
From: #399R K.O.A. Mountian Home, ID. 83647
Registered: Jul 2005


 - posted March 09, 2017 12:41 PM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage   Email Osi Osgood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I would agree that watching something on film instead of digital doesn't add anything to the narrative of a story ...

but those who praise and prize digital really do on a basis of cost over quality. Digital will never be able to equal film.

Folks who praise digital never take into account, for instance, that film-makers, before they even expose a single frame, specifically seek out this or that film stock based upon it's specific properties, color, contrast and yes, even that dreaded film grain. It really is there for a reason.

While a film on bluray will be cleaned up and perhaps sharper than on a film print (in general), it is also cold in general.

Now, people who are juast looking for a story presentation, by all means, go digital, as you'll save a great load of money, but the presentation truly suffers.

It's like comparing a living breathing woman to a Barbie doll.

Let's say you even make that barbie doll a perfect likeness of a living person ...

The living person? Warm, active and has a myriad of options as to how you can be engaged with it ...

The Barbie doll? Cold, lifeless. Good looking, to be sure, but just plastic.

That's the comparison.

Digital ... plastic.
Film ... the real deal!

[Smile]

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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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David Hardy
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 944
From: Johnshaven Village , Montrose, Scotland
Registered: Jan 2015


 - posted March 09, 2017 12:45 PM      Profile for David Hardy   Email David Hardy   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thank you Andrew for your honest reply.
I will put that one to bed now.

I have to disagree with you there Osi.
Both Film and Digital are forms of bliss for me but
in different ways and for different reasons.
In fact I have screened Digital copies of a movie
made on 35mm that was superior in quality to the
35mm prints we had on site at the time.

Just as two beautiful women lovers have different things
to offer me.

Now just where did I put that scratched and wowy sound Derann
Standard 8mm sound feature print of 'Ghost Of Frankenstein.'

I think I will watch it tonight.
[Smile] [Smile] [Smile] [Wink] [Wink] [Wink]

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" My equipment's more important than your rats. "

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