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Author Topic: Review Wolverine Reels2Digital MovieMaker 8mm film digitizer
Kev Morrison
Film Handler

Posts: 75
From: Land of the Mouse, USA
Registered: Feb 2018


 - posted June 06, 2018 08:04 PM      Profile for Kev Morrison   Email Kev Morrison   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Mark, I agree - the blue car is a '58 Ford, pretty rare to find nowadays, but the color is dead on.

There's also a '60 - '61 Corvair (I absolutely love watching old movies just to see the old cars!), and the color shown in the second screen for the Corvair is also quite accurate.

These Raspberry PI PCs are amazing, but I've never seen these used for digitizing film. I'm impressed!

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Mike O'Connor
Junior
Posts: 2
From: Glasgow, Scotland
Registered: Jul 2018


 - posted July 20, 2018 03:24 PM      Profile for Mike O'Connor   Email Mike O'Connor   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hello
I have been reading this thread with great interest and wanted to share what I have learned concerning access to the individual images that make up the Mp4 files that the Wolverine scanner and its clones produce. Of course an Mp4 is simply a container and of course the individual Jpegs that make up the video files are there. I cannot understand why folk have been scratching their heads concerning this process.A quick google search for a utility to achieve this took about 10 seconds to suggest the following program which does the job very quickly and very effeciently. It unpacks the Mp4 to give you the thousands of images that make up the video file. I hope this is helpful to the guys and gals that use the little Wolverine or one of its clones. I recently purchased a Winait derivitive and have to say I am so far very pleased with results that I have achieved thus far with it. It is of course a tool for the hobbyist and for the money I have to say I think its pretty darned good. With a little post processing I am amazed at what can be achieved. Anyway the program I am talking about can be found here

https://www.dvdvideosoft.com/products/dvd/Free-Video-to-JPG-Converter.htm

Meant to say when you launch the program simply load your Mp4 file and check the little 'Every Frame' button to extract all frames.

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Mike Brantley
Junior
Posts: 13
From: Mobile, AL, USA
Registered: Jan 2018


 - posted July 21, 2018 12:18 AM      Profile for Mike Brantley   Email Mike Brantley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If you extract jpeg images from the already highly compressed mp4 movie file, wouldn't the frames be of lesser quality than the original frame scans grabbed before the compressed movie file was created? Or do I understand the problem wrong?

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Mike Spice
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 227
From: Chichester, West Sussex, UK
Registered: Jun 2017


 - posted July 21, 2018 02:52 AM      Profile for Mike Spice   Email Mike Spice   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
This program does not extract the original image sequence but as mentioned, just takes stills from a video file, which is already compressed.

The fact you could put any video file in to this software, (and there are many other variations of this software) doesn't mean it will extract the original uncompressed image sequence, (which is what we are hoping for one day) just a series of images of a video file, along with whatever compression was used to make that video file.

Once a compressed video file is created it is not possible to pull out original uncompressed still images from that file, and it's those images that would be so valuable to have.

thanks for the post however. We'll get there one day.....

ps: the point of wanting the original still frames before compression is so they could be put in to software like VirtualDub and one could then apply your own compression/codec/bitrate/framerate and obtain much better results than the Wolverine compression and ridiculous framerate.

here is an example of what I mean, albeit 1080p stills from a gopro camera. I made a timelapse of a construction project over 18 months, taking up to 30,000 still images a week at different frame rates depending on the subject, but mostly 1 frame every six seconds.

Imagine a 1080p Wolverine still image sequence made in to video this way, would be amazing. Even 720p Wolverine still images would look smart.

I put those still images in to VDub to create video files with compression/codec/framerates of my choice.

youtube has applied it's own compression but it still looks good

still image time lapse example HQ
Still image time lapse example LQ

Here is a still image taken from a Wolverine 720p scan, the compression artifacts are quite visible, so one wouldn't want to compress that again in to a new file.
 -

[ July 21, 2018, 06:06 AM: Message edited by: Mike Spice ]

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Mike O'Connor
Junior
Posts: 2
From: Glasgow, Scotland
Registered: Jul 2018


 - posted August 05, 2018 08:42 AM      Profile for Mike O'Connor   Email Mike O'Connor   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ah of course the jpegs are compressed as the mp4 is created. Silly me...I must remember to think before posting. Still like the little scanner though. I constructed my own years ago from a modified Eumig 610D and plano condenser lens. Have to say the Wolverine is comparable and a heck of a lot easier to use :-)

A first attempt at using the scanner..pretty happy with the results. Some Kodak Tri X footage shot for inclusion in my first attempt at shooting a music video :-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7P-YGCHrvs

Here's the final effort :

https://vimeo.com/45965952

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Pere Pasqual
Film Handler

Posts: 43
From: Gandia, València, Spain
Registered: May 2017


 - posted August 06, 2018 04:40 AM      Profile for Pere Pasqual   Author's Homepage   Email Pere Pasqual   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:

Ah of course the jpegs are compressed as the mp4 is created.

And there is another wrong assumption, in the sense that an MP4 is *not* "a sequence of JPG files", but frames are grabbed in their "raw" format (or whatever format the are being given as, but I'm assuming they arrive in their raw format from the scanner senstor to the compressing firmware in the Wolverine) and then a different, own compression method is applied to them, different to the one used in JPEG files, having inter-frame compression and many other differences. It can share some compression techniques with JPEG but definitely is not the same compression method.

In fact, there was a compression method, MJPEG, which actually consisted of and arranged set of a series of individual JPEG files, and it was used in analog capture cards from the late 90's, first 00's, notably the Miro DC 10 plus, DC 30 plus and so on:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motion_JPEG

Quality was great, but its data usage or bitrate was huge compared to the current, far more optimized compression method. Anyway, it's still used in some areas because it makes sense for quality preservation while editing.

quote:

Here is a still image taken from a Wolverine 720p scan, the compression artifacts are quite visible

Maybe in that capture there are some certaing compression atifcats. But in this thread we saw some examples of captures at great bitrate and easy to compress, plain background color images, which show similar artifacts and compression couldn't be blamed for causing them. Maybe it's just sensor noise or the Wolverine is not doing things as it should...

[ August 06, 2018, 07:22 AM: Message edited by: Pere Pasqual ]

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Werner Ruotsalainen
Film Handler

Posts: 95
From: Helsinki, Finland
Registered: Dec 2017


 - posted August 11, 2018 05:03 AM      Profile for Werner Ruotsalainen   Email Werner Ruotsalainen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Some Kodak Tri X footage shot for inclusion in my first attempt at shooting a music video :-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7P-YGCHrvs

Excellent footage. Kodak FTW! I still admire how the old Kodachrome 8mm (and other) films show absolutely no fading / tinting / resolution decrease, unlike a lot of alternatives. Examples of the latter are for example Agfa, which terribly ages (I've digitized hundreds of Agfa films and ALL of them are terrible), even in as little as 27 years. I only wish current color Kodak films aged as nicely as Kodachrome (I have mixed results with their non-Kodachrome-branded, old films)... Interestingly, the (back then) supercheap, East-German ORWO ages much-much better (no fading etc.) than Agfa and a lot of other, much more expensive Western alternatives.

BTW, WRT the maximal resolution gainable from Super8, which has been widely discussed on the net (see e.g. https://forums.anandtech.com/threads/super-8-film-what-resolution.2062635/ http://www.cinematography.com/index.php?showtopic=2083 ), indeed even Kodachrome footage shot in the 60's / 70's with a proper camera & technique easily exceed SD.

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James Fountain
Junior
Posts: 2
From: Baton Rouge, LA, USA
Registered: Oct 2018


 - posted October 07, 2018 10:33 AM      Profile for James Fountain   Email James Fountain   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I really awnt to thank everyone who has contributed to this thread over the past years. I have long wanted to digitize the memories that my grandfather so meticulously documented, everything from driving APCs in the National Guard, to the buildings my great grandfather built, to birthday parties, to garden tilling, to the family members who are only names without these videos. Taking the leap to buy a Wolverine and then improve the quality of the video for proper viewing was really bolstered by this thread. So thank you. I've begun to compile a few thoughts and questions I would like to add, but before I start that I just wanted to let all of you know that you have been a huge help.

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James Fountain
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From: Baton Rouge, LA, USA
Registered: Oct 2018


 - posted October 07, 2018 02:58 PM      Profile for James Fountain   Email James Fountain   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I thought it might be useful to compile what a few of the highlights I dug out of the 17 pages of comments. I know this is far from everything but I felt like this was the minimum I needed to get started with collecting the data:

Firmware:

Custom Firmware to unlock high bitrate data storage with a resolution increase from 720p to 1440p can be installed on many machines. In general this thread doesn't seem to show anyone that had issues with either firmware (I did but that's for the questions below)

1) Pierre has developed several firmware options that all collect at 30fps, the can be downloaded from http://retromania.pandelground.com/
2) The firmware for the Somikon units can be downloaded from Somikon.de (use google translate). This firmware will unlock a 20fps 1440p resolution higher bitrate data log

Frame rate and bitrate:

1) The default recording frame rate is 30fps, this doesn't correctly reflect the 16 or 18fps frame rate expected from our 8mm and super 8mm film. The higher frame rate results in unnatural movement and ~50% reduction in run time.
2) Bitrate is surprisingly low and well below what should be achievable. As a result images introduce electronic noise in our images and reduce overall quality.
2) Several options exist to modify the frame rate but the use of the open source program ffmpeg allows for simple command line options to batch convert the frame rate
3) Using just a -r 16 (for %%a in ("*.*4") do ffmpeg -i "%%a" -y -r 16 "newfiles\%%~na.mp4") will change the frame rate but it leaves the run time shortened still.
4) By decoding and then recoding the file you will create a file with the correct frame rate and run time but you risk further decreasing the quality of your recording.
5) If you want to decode to h264 then recode to 16fps you can take the batch file I created below, paste it into a text file, save the text file and change the file type from .txt to .bat, place the .bat and ffmpeg.exe in the same folder as the files you want to convert. When you run it you will have your original files, the h264 files, and recoded 16fps mp4 files.

if not exist %cd%\converted md %cd%\converted
copy ffmpeg.exe %cd%\converted\ffmpeg.exe
for %%a in ("*.*4") do ffmpeg -y -i "%%a" -c copy -f h264 "converted\%%~na.h264"
cd converted
if not exist %cd%\16fps md %cd%\16fps
for %%a in ("*.h264") do ffmpeg -i "%%a" -y -r 16 "16fps\%%~na.mp4"
echo All mp4's in this folder have been converted to 16fps
pause

Image reprocessing

1) I don't see a lot of information on program suggestions for reprocessing and cleaning up the files. I'm not looking to create perfection but I would like to optimize the files a bit. Avisynth looks like a decent option.

My questions:

1) I bought a used wolverine and it turns out my unit is pre mass production 2016 (no vents I suspect belt driven). The price was right and it appears to be in incredible shape, but the modified firmwares do not work on my unit. They all result in a solid blue screen after reflashing. I was lucky enough to get a copy of the old firmware from Wolverine and I've got my unit running again but I would love to limit the compression. Does anyone know of a firmware that may work with this unit? Would there be a good place to host this version in case someone else runs into my problem? Does anyone want to crack this firmware open and see if they can modify it to unlock the resolution/bit rate?

2) How much quality loss can I expect from using my ffmpeg script. I can't see it but it is also difficult to compare a film running at 30fps and 16fps. If it is significant can anyone suggest a better way to convert fps and runtime without losing quality?

3) Any software suggestions with a relatively simple learning curve? I would like to get my sons involved with collecting and processing this data as a Christmas present for my grandmother/grandfather. I'm not opposed to more complex software but if I could get something in there learning path I would love it.

Thanks again everyone, I find myself getting more and more excited about this project. Now if I can keep it from becoming a short term obsession...

[ October 08, 2018, 11:58 AM: Message edited by: James Fountain ]

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Mike Spice
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 227
From: Chichester, West Sussex, UK
Registered: Jun 2017


 - posted October 08, 2018 10:33 AM      Profile for Mike Spice   Email Mike Spice   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
James in my opinion the only simple quick effective way to change framerate on any Wolverine scan, without any re encoding, is to use MyMP4 Box.

It is mentioned in the thread, it's free, safe to use on windows and will correct the frame rate in a few moments.

I could not live without it.

If you need a more detailed tutorial let me know, but it's use is covered further back in this thread, in a nut shell....

go to the demux tab, 'open' a video and hit demux.

Once done (progress bar in the bottom of the window) go to the mux tab, add the H264 file the demux generated, it will be in the same folder as the video you added.

Change the frame rate in the option box at the bottom of the screen and hit mux, job done.

There is no preset for 18fps but if you go to the 'view' menu before your first mux and choose 'view command line' leave the fps box alone and hit the MUX option.

The command line will open and you can insert your choice of fps in the right part of the command line directly after the fps command.

Hit save and run

The software will do a few other things but for Wolverine owners a quick demux and re mux at a different framerate is all you should need.

It will also join videos seamlessy which is handy for those scans that need to be stopped part way thro for what ever reason and you end up with mulitple video files of one reel.

Use the 'join' tab to add the segements of a dodgy scan and then do the demux/mux ........ job done.

I have taken to muxing everything to 15fps, which I know is not correct, but I happen to like the results.....

MyMP4Box

[ October 09, 2018, 11:30 AM: Message edited by: Mike Spice ]

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Werner Ruotsalainen
Film Handler

Posts: 95
From: Helsinki, Finland
Registered: Dec 2017


 - posted October 14, 2018 07:48 AM      Profile for Werner Ruotsalainen   Email Werner Ruotsalainen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
BTW, Kodak offers scanning 40 original (for S8, 3-minute) rolls of 8mm film for $560. Does anyone know whether the quality of the scanning is any good?

More info (also with my ("Menneisyys") comment): https://www.dpreview.com/news/5517199130/kodak-digitizing-box-service-breathes-life-into-old-media-with-minimal-effort#comments

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Kamel Ikhlef
Film Handler

Posts: 56
From: Arches, France
Registered: Oct 2018


 - posted October 23, 2018 12:23 PM      Profile for Kamel Ikhlef   Email Kamel Ikhlef   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Dear users of the wolverine, reflecta, somikon scanners ... would any of you have thought about changing the optics of this scanner?
not the complete block but just the lens of the camera. you have to see the type of mount. if it is the M12 (mount S) in case there are better optics megapixel low distortion that could cleanly improve the resolution while waiting for a more evolved firmware. Even if mp4 compression is low from a scan with good optics would be a plus.
it would be nice to have in the future a firmware with a menu and a choice of output: low definition (default) that currently exists. another medium definition choice (1 image / sec) with a better quality of compression and a high quality choice (1 image / 2 sec) with a high quality or without compression (raw file). It would be really great. sorry for my english...

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Patti Mathews
Junior
Posts: 1
From: Orlando, FL, USA
Registered: Nov 2018


 - posted November 11, 2018 03:57 PM      Profile for Patti Mathews   Author's Homepage   Email Patti Mathews   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hello, I got the Winait Film Scanner DV-180N, it looks a lot like the Wolverine,,,

Anyway, I lost the included (or never got) the FPS Converter software that can simply change the frame rate, does anyone here have it or have a link to it?

I asked Richard at Winait and he seem to be too busy to actually help me out

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Ken Abruzzo
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Posts: 9
From: Ridge, NY, USA
Registered: Nov 2017


 - posted November 12, 2018 05:32 AM      Profile for Ken Abruzzo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Patti Mathews - There was never any software included. You didn't lose anything. The framerate software is called MyMP4Box. Mike Spice included a link to it a few posts up from this.

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Mike Spice
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 227
From: Chichester, West Sussex, UK
Registered: Jun 2017


 - posted November 12, 2018 10:20 AM      Profile for Mike Spice   Email Mike Spice   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
here is the link
it only runs on windows pc's
My Mp4 Box

Basic instructions once installed:

go to the demux tab, 'open' a video and hit demux.

Once done (progress bar in the bottom of the window) go to the mux tab, add the H264 file the demux generated, it will be in the same folder as the video you added.

Change the frame rate in the option box at the bottom of the screen and hit mux, job done.

There is no preset for 18fps but if you go to the 'view' menu before your first mux and choose 'view command line' leave the fps box alone and hit the MUX option.

The command line will open and you can insert your choice of fps in the right part of the command line directly after the fps command.

Hit save and run

My own preference is to set fps to 15, I like how that looks.

The software will do a few other things but for Wolverine owners a quick demux and re mux at a different framerate is all you should need.

It will also join videos seamlessy which is handy for those scans that need to be stopped part way thro for what ever reason and you end up with mulitple video files of one reel.

Use the 'join' tab to add the segements of a dodgy scan and then do the demux/mux

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Nantawat Kittiwarakul
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 237
From: Rajburana, Bangkok, Thailand
Registered: Aug 2017


 - posted November 12, 2018 07:25 PM      Profile for Nantawat Kittiwarakul   Email Nantawat Kittiwarakul   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Or if you don't mind plain old/boring UI and some learning curve,I suggest VirtualDub for frame rate conversion. [Smile]

 -

After importing the clip into Vdub,choose direct stream copy. No re-encoding/recompression required hence lightning fast operation. [Big Grin]

 -

Then just dial in the framerate of your choice. Btw 16fps is the standard speed for Regular8,18fps is for Super8.

 -

The resulted file will be in *.avi extension although the actual video stream inside will remain the same. So there should be no problem playing it.
Actually it could do much more than just framerate conversion,but that's another story. [Wink]

--------------------
Just a lone collector from a faraway land...

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Mike Spice
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 227
From: Chichester, West Sussex, UK
Registered: Jun 2017


 - posted November 13, 2018 10:35 AM      Profile for Mike Spice   Email Mike Spice   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
VirtualDub is the most incredible bit of software.
I spent 18 months doing a time lapse for work.
I couldn't have done it without VD

That said, not all versions of VD will work with mp4 video so make sure you get the right version.

I was using image sequences (jpgs) to compile a weekly total of some 60Gb of images to turn in to video.

A steep learning curve for a new user, a genius bit of free software.

VD will always be on my laptop, but for wolverine work I have to say MYMP4BOX is much easier for simple frame rate and joining jobs.

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Jan Schoonenberg
Junior
Posts: 7
From: Soest, Netherlands
Registered: Nov 2018


 - posted December 09, 2018 08:06 AM      Profile for Jan Schoonenberg   Author's Homepage   Email Jan Schoonenberg   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hello! I live in Holland and just registered for this Forum. Have perused it at length. Am puzzled about the sequence of messages here.
I have - for the time - just ONE - question. Will post more, a.o. about the European Reflecta.
Question: The Wolverine can be had from B&H and the very large international Mailorder houses. Can someone tell me wether these now (still) have the cogwheel takeup-with-mechanical-stepper instead of the belt (O ring)? this mopdification was provided by the American distributor of the Wolverine late 2017. The European distributor Reflecta still has the early equivalent of the 1917 version with the belt.
AND there were reports of mechanical troubles with the stepper.
So did Wolverine go back to the belt?
If there is interest I will post photo's later. Thanks.

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Alan Taplow
Junior
Posts: 29
From: Plainfield VT, USA
Registered: Feb 2015


 - posted December 09, 2018 04:28 PM      Profile for Alan Taplow   Author's Homepage   Email Alan Taplow   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'm certain there are folks who don't think this is a great idea, however it works for me. I found that using the takeup reel in any of the models causes the image to jerk around. I see in the new pro model they put an extra turn in the takeup path to try to reduce the pull on the film, but it was not successful for me.

Instead of using the take-up reel at all,I have been letting the film go into a large waste basket, which causes no pull whatsoever on the film. If you don't move the basket around while the film is going into it, it seems to rewind quite well with no tangles. This way, it doesn't matter if you have an old machine or a new one, belt or direct drive --- running 50 feet or 400 feet, my results have been smooth since starting this practice. I have an old editor I use for rewinding - much faster than the rotation on the Wolverine take-up mechanism. So, don't sweat the take-up, just bypass it and seems to work much better.

--------------------
Alan Taplow
ataplow@gmail.com

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Jan Schoonenberg
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Posts: 7
From: Soest, Netherlands
Registered: Nov 2018


 - posted December 09, 2018 04:43 PM      Profile for Jan Schoonenberg   Author's Homepage   Email Jan Schoonenberg   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks for the repy. I use this method already and it works. But I would rather not have to do that. With statics it collects dust. And it is inconvenient. My question: does the present Wolverine again uses a belt or the cogwheel/stepper still remains.

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Phil Cross
Junior
Posts: 2
From: Hobart, TAS, Australia
Registered: Dec 2018


 - posted December 11, 2018 06:16 AM      Profile for Phil Cross   Email Phil Cross   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi,

I have the Wolverine Pro and have started converting a number of 8mm reels. I think I might have put a mark/smudge where picture is taken as a mark is appearing on the digital movies.

What would be the best approach to clean this smudge? Cloth or would I need fluid of some description?

Thanks in advance.
Cheers
Phil

PS Thanks to all who have contributed to this post, has been a great resource.

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Mike Spice
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 227
From: Chichester, West Sussex, UK
Registered: Jun 2017


 - posted December 12, 2018 11:48 AM      Profile for Mike Spice   Email Mike Spice   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
A dry cotton bud gently on the led white cover followed by a shot of air or soft brush is what I would try

Avoid any fluids of any kind.

Can you see a similar mark on the white LED lamp cover with no film in it?

Does the mark on the film show up on the LCD screen when there is no film in the scanner?

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Phil Cross
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Posts: 2
From: Hobart, TAS, Australia
Registered: Dec 2018


 - posted December 13, 2018 04:34 AM      Profile for Phil Cross   Email Phil Cross   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks Mike, will try that out.

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Kevin R Sexton
Junior
Posts: 7
From: Littlerock, CA, USA
Registered: Dec 2018


 - posted December 30, 2018 09:03 PM      Profile for Kevin R Sexton   Email Kevin R Sexton   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I've just got the Pro version, and test run one reel so far. With the small LCD screen it's hard to judge exposure and sharpness, so I left them on default.
I'm disappointed in the quality of the output, looks like it is captured at less than 1080, highly compressed, then upscaled to 1080. It's not just that there are artifacts, but the size of the artifacts that are wiping out detail.

I've read through about half the posts here, one thing I'm seeing is to set sharpness to low, but are there any other things I should do?
Getting firmware updates from wolverine, and using modified firmware are mentioned here, but seem to only refer to the original model, not the pro.
 -
This is a cropped screenshot from the video I've converted so far.

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Mike Spice
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 227
From: Chichester, West Sussex, UK
Registered: Jun 2017


 - posted December 31, 2018 02:37 AM      Profile for Mike Spice   Email Mike Spice   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Kevin, is that a still from the original scan on the memory card, untouched by video edit?

Are you able to upload a 20 second clip to you tube for us to see?

I can imagine your disappointment in that quality but I don't have an explanation.

I have seen much better examples from the Pro, as have you.

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