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Author Topic: Review Wolverine Reels2Digital MovieMaker 8mm film digitizer
Mike Spice
Master Film Handler

Posts: 421
From: none of your business
Registered: Jun 2017


 - posted October 25, 2019 12:15 PM      Profile for Mike Spice     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I wonder how much effect the white light of the sprocket hole square affects the cameras' sensitivity?

It's not possible to get rid of it even using partial scan at any resolution.

A constant square of white during many different lighting conditions in the film.....

I am also beginning to realise this mod is more sensitive to extraneous light than the Wolverine was., so I am now shielding the gate area to block out light from the environment around the scanner

[ October 25, 2019, 01:49 PM: Message edited by: Mike Spice ]

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Kamel Ikhlef
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 213
From: Arches, France
Registered: Oct 2018


 - posted October 25, 2019 02:10 PM      Profile for Kamel Ikhlef   Email Kamel Ikhlef   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Mike,
In this case it would be necessary to scan the image in the final format directly 4/3 for example: 1440x1080. That's what I'm trying to do. But I have not succeeded yet.

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Mike Spice
Master Film Handler

Posts: 421
From: none of your business
Registered: Jun 2017


 - posted October 25, 2019 02:26 PM      Profile for Mike Spice     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I would love to be able to scan 1440x1080 as an option, but I do like the overscan

The capture settings are a bit of a puzzle.

Partial scan changes when I come out of external trigger.
I check 'auto white balance' and 'auto exposure' and set things in motion.

Next time I look at the settings, the boxes are unchecked.
This is really frustrating.

Mid scan I have gone back to using the laptop and the settings are remembered with no problem.
Very odd, the Revo is up to spec for the task in hand

may have found the answer

Software on the Revo crashed today, since then it forgets it's settings.

On the laptop just now I stopped a scan to see if it had remembered it's settings and I stopped it perhaps a bit to quick before allowing the software to recover from writing.

The IC Capture software went 'non responding' and I had to force close it.
Now it too, forgets it's settings.

I can only guess it is something to do with user/app data/roaming/default.iccf getting corrupted.

I will try deleting it on the Revo and if that doesn't work, I will uninstall and re install IC Capture.

i give up

TWO computers losing settings during a scan!

on the laptop I deleted the app/default file
still losing it's settings during a scan.

on the revo i uninstalled IC Capture and reinstalled.
still losing it's settings during a scan.

It still remembers it's 'save and file number' settings from before me uninstalling the program... so what got left behind during uninstall?

I am really tempted to put my wolverine back to how it was.

I can not scan when settings are not remembered and actually change during a scan.

I was looking forward to four days of cine but right now, I could happily throw the whole lot out of the window.

The first day I started this working, it was fine, now it has all gone to s**t

It's not the mod, it's the software.

I can't scan films if the software settings keep changing.

Looks like a long saturday pulling registry edits and uninstalling again.

[ October 25, 2019, 07:31 PM: Message edited by: Mike Spice ]

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Stan Jelavic
Master Film Handler

Posts: 314
From: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jan 2019


 - posted October 25, 2019 07:37 PM      Profile for Stan Jelavic   Email Stan Jelavic   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Bruce, did you say that the machine work ok before? As suggested, check the film gate carefully. Is the film loose in the gate. With the claw disengaged, the film should be somewhat tight to pull.
Possibly damaged claw cam. I have some spare if required.
Mike, don,t give up. You are almost there. Unfortunately I have only my iPad with me so cannot do much testing. But hey, the api is available. I can do a custom sw to interface to the cam. And there we can do whatever we like... The downside is delay. BTW this is a usb cam so some other camera sw may work as well. Something to check.

Just looked at the SDK offered for free from imagingsource for this and other cameras and looks like everything is there for us to do our own version of capture. That also opens up other possibilities... for example if auto settings are to be used, the software can reduce the resolution temporarily to eliminate the white square and do auto exposure etc. then go back to original Rez and continue with the capture. But anyways for the starters we should do just a simple code that would make partial scan easy to do.

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Bruce Davis
Film Handler

Posts: 47
From: Adelaide, Australia
Registered: Sep 2019


 - posted October 25, 2019 11:51 PM      Profile for Bruce Davis   Author's Homepage   Email Bruce Davis   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Kamel Ikhlef Mike Spice thanks for the replies, I was not aware that the "door closing flap" had a spring loaded part to it, checked that and found it had a reasonable grip on the film, so that is not the problem. Setting the claw in its down position is what I do also.

Regarding the capture software IC capture, its free and has some bugs. I'm running Win7 and have the same problem, EDIT just happened to me part way through a scan it forgot its auto exposure/WDR settings, not all are forgotten just some. Same happens if a config is saved and reloaded.

Stan Jelavic I found the problem, it has to do with the Claw position in relation to the gate when set to Super8 or Standard8 and partly the fact that the 8mm film has quite a bit of sideway play inside the gate.

On super8 setting the claw side face is only 0.457mm from the gate guide face, super8 film punched hole edge to edge of film is 0.51mm. Its not much I know but enough to stop the claw from penetrating and simply sliding on the underside of the film. Taking into account allowable tolerances in film manufacture and the amount of sideways play in the gate adds to the problem.

I have set (with the sliding switch) the gate position so that it is roughly half way between the 8mm and S8mm settings, this places the Claw right in the center of the S8 punched holes feeding the film successfully.

Thanks for your help, Regards - Bruce

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Mike Spice
Master Film Handler

Posts: 421
From: none of your business
Registered: Jun 2017


 - posted October 26, 2019 03:54 AM      Profile for Mike Spice     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
so it is not only me with software issues.
At least that will stop me pulling my hair out for now.
I have sent a message to Imaging Source asking for advice, I doubt I will hear from them until next week.

I will try one uninstall with a registry tidy up and see if that cures it.

As Stan mentioned, there must be other software capable of capture. camera control software perhaps?

EDIT:

I uninstalled the capture software from my laptop, deleted the appdata/roaming/default.iccf and ran a registry tidy up.

Something is still getting left behind, when I re installed the capture software it still remembered where my last file save was and the file name and number.

And sure enough, it is forgetting it's settings again.
This is just stupid, there has to be a simple reason for this to suddenly start happening, not only to me either.

Stan, if you can make software that will do this task then goodness me, I take my hat off to you!

I won't do any more scanning until this issue is sorted, it's just too annoying......

That said, I do have IC Capture on my 'workhorse' fujitsu i5 so I may give that a go later today.

[ October 26, 2019, 06:45 AM: Message edited by: Mike Spice ]

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Stuart Reid
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 720
From: Worthing, West Sussex, UK
Registered: Feb 2009


 - posted October 26, 2019 07:47 AM      Profile for Stuart Reid   Email Stuart Reid   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Mike, is it worth taking a 'snapshot' of your OS before installing the software, then if/when it goes tits up revert to the snapshot.

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Stan Jelavic
Master Film Handler

Posts: 314
From: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jan 2019


 - posted October 26, 2019 09:00 AM      Profile for Stan Jelavic   Email Stan Jelavic   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Mike, have you tried save config and load config commands?

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Mike Spice
Master Film Handler

Posts: 421
From: none of your business
Registered: Jun 2017


 - posted October 26, 2019 09:11 AM      Profile for Mike Spice     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Stuart I guess I could have done a system restore point prior to installing the IC Capture, but too late now so I am looking at a program that does a better job of the standard windows uninstaller. There are a number of them, that do a deep search and take out every last trace of a program.

Stan No I haven't tried loading a saved config.
By that I guess you mean make the various selections, save it as a config, and then load that same config prior to scan, and see if it keeps the settings
No I haven't tried that, but it is something to try over the weekend.

I am going to give IC Capture a run on my i5 laptop this evening and see what happens there.

In theory it shouldn't make a difference as the software will run on several o/s

If it too forgets the settings, then I will experiment back with the Revo computer, using save and load configs.

Not an ideal solution by any means, if it means constantly having to reload a config during a scan, but worth a try.

Two computers of mine and also Bruce suffering with it too, so something is clearly amiss in the way we are using IC Capture, I can't imagine Imaging Source would not be aware of this if it were a bug, as the software has been available for download since Feb 2017.

I did wonder if it was worth trying an earlier version.

edit I am now trying a scan with a config loaded of the settings I want for this particular reel, lets see if they stay set.

I wonder if this is the point I am making a mistake
 -

I have been using the default selected 'disable property automations' partly because that's what Stan did in the mod video, and partly because I stupidly always accept the default option and not bother to read exactly what it is offering me.

Partly because it also warns that the quality of some images may suffer!

Presumably that is where the auto white balance and auto exposure are being lost, as they are auto settings on the 'device'
That doesn't explain why the partial scan area would change, like it did yesterday, when de activating the external trigger, as that is not an auto setting, unless it is at the default settings, then partial scan is set to auto

So a scan this afternoon I am selecting 'leave property automations enabled' and have loaded a pre saved config which include auto white balance, auto exposure and my partial scan area settings before activating a capture.

I have also used the 'VIEW' menu to show me the toolbars for white balance exposure and brightness, I can already see that the ones that should be set to auto, are auto checked while the scan is happening, and I can turn them on and off while the scan happens and see the difference in the live preview.
So, for now, promising.

[ October 26, 2019, 10:20 AM: Message edited by: Mike Spice ]

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Stan Jelavic
Master Film Handler

Posts: 314
From: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jan 2019


 - posted October 26, 2019 10:17 AM      Profile for Stan Jelavic   Email Stan Jelavic   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yes that is what I meant. Different configs.
BTW I wanted to disable auto properties because for the clip I ran I went all mamual. Settings.
For uninstall check the software folder for uninstal000.exe or something similar.

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Mike Spice
Master Film Handler

Posts: 421
From: none of your business
Registered: Jun 2017


 - posted October 26, 2019 10:28 AM      Profile for Mike Spice     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If my guess about disabling the property automations at the activation of the external trigger are correct, then the uninstall conundrum is fortunately no longer an issue.

Partial scan area seems to be stable as well, having stopped the scan a number of times, so lets hope that is down to having loaded a config of the partial scan area.

A very tiring week at work left me without focus or brains last night, so a fresh mind today and guidance here, I think we are back on track.

The reel being scanned now, is being done with manual exposure, and I have to say the live view looks promising, it also means I can make scene by scene changes to the exposure.

Manual exposure also means I can stop worrying about the light thro' the sprocket hole.

Having the tool bars up during a scan is very handy, learning new software, always a bit of a jigsaw puzzle.
This photo before I went to manual exposure

 -

[ October 26, 2019, 02:06 PM: Message edited by: Mike Spice ]

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Kamel Ikhlef
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 213
From: Arches, France
Registered: Oct 2018


 - posted October 26, 2019 02:47 PM      Profile for Kamel Ikhlef   Email Kamel Ikhlef   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Mike,
"white light of the sprocket hole square"
Could not we hide the piercing side of the scan window (a 1mm band), to reduce the shooting frame.

Thus, we will not see the white spot that influences the automatic exposure). Well, it's just an idea ...

In fact, think about a removable cache to decrease the size of the shooting gate...

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Mike Spice
Master Film Handler

Posts: 421
From: none of your business
Registered: Jun 2017


 - posted October 26, 2019 03:12 PM      Profile for Mike Spice     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Kamel.

I am using manual exposure for a reel today, so the white light of the sprocket hole is not a problem.

I hope this will be my usual method from now on, as I have complete control during the scan, using the tool bars in the IC Capture.

I can manually adjust exposure from scene to scene with a simple mouse click.

test clip from today

A couple of priceless moments from a family reel.

36.7Gb 7470 tiff images was today total for around 190ft

Looks a bit pale. Looks ok on live preview on the lcd tv screen, looks quite 'white' on my laptop lcd screen.

I wouldn't mind having da vinci resolve on a macbook to do some post.

I have got Shotcut which is very clever, I might try that and see where I get.

I love the fact I can now pull out .tiff still frames of people in cine, who we don't have photos of.

Perfect still frame compared to wolverine still frame on screen.

I had to have another go at the 50ft HMS Ganges reel

Where I joined the Royal Navy in 1974.

When I was 17yo

[ October 26, 2019, 06:29 PM: Message edited by: Mike Spice ]

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Kamel Ikhlef
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 213
From: Arches, France
Registered: Oct 2018


 - posted October 27, 2019 03:02 AM      Profile for Kamel Ikhlef   Email Kamel Ikhlef   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Mike,
You have picture movies that are beautiful !. This is very encouraging...
This shows the potential of what this modified telecine could do. You went very far in the tests and the results are really up.
I think it will take for some films to go through a post-treatment (davinci resolve, film9 or others ...).

did you try the sharpness function to recover some fuzzy scenes? It seems to me that it works well without bringing too many artifacts like original Wolverine. To test...

But as I said, some professional Scan labs do not do better and there is better for us to master all the processing workflow. We are almost there...

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Mike Spice
Master Film Handler

Posts: 421
From: none of your business
Registered: Jun 2017


 - posted October 27, 2019 05:09 AM      Profile for Mike Spice     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Kamel Merci pour ton commentaire gentil

I would like to do some post, first I want to master the different scan techniques available

Manual exposure for me, every time from now on.
Auto white balance.

I am scanning a reel today with Sharpness at maximum using jpg image files.

In a couple of hours, I hope to see the result

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Stan Jelavic
Master Film Handler

Posts: 314
From: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jan 2019


 - posted October 27, 2019 08:29 AM      Profile for Stan Jelavic   Email Stan Jelavic   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
In the test clip that I posted originally I used auto white balance and manual exposure Mike. But I was not aware at the time that this can be done as the scan is running which is pretty cool. So I would set the exposure once ending up with some dark scenes.
So the scanner needs a babysitter but that is how scanning should be done of you want decent results, right?
Really excited to play with postprocessing tools when I get back home next week.

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David Brown
Film Handler

Posts: 42
From: Centerville, UT, USA
Registered: Oct 2019


 - posted October 27, 2019 11:57 AM      Profile for David Brown   Email David Brown   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Mike
Did I say how much I appreciate the testing that you share? I wish I could help more but I don't have a camera or controller board yet.

You might be aware of ghosting that I noticed from your last post. It will be most evident with high contrast and motion. I don't know the software you are using to get the tifs to video. It's not likely that this is on the film or each tiff captured. It could be Youtube?

 -

I have had this problem and found it happend when I changed the framerate. I had captured 30 fps (when I used old firmware) and 20 fps from the Wolverine. I had tried ffmpg and found it was just deleting frames!!! I stopped using that but in all fairness I did not fully understand all the options. I had used someone elses suggestions. I would prefer the framerate to be ready before using a video editor.

In Vegas, it is simple to change the frame rate. There is an option that is set by default that tries to smooth the anticipated jerkiness of a lower framerate. They call it "resampling". What happens is that some frames are composited together like a double exposure (that's the ghosting). Problem is I can see it even though it is subtle. That option can be turned off, and problem solved.

I don't why that should happen now that stills are being combined into a video stream. It's my best guess where to look. I certainly don't want to add more to your plate!

Remind me what your assembly is from tifs to video. I can play with it. I need to take better notes along the way. Hawkeye is evolving over time so I find myself going back thru the posts to find the current methods and parts!

Not fast.

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Mike Spice
Master Film Handler

Posts: 421
From: none of your business
Registered: Jun 2017


 - posted October 27, 2019 12:50 PM      Profile for Mike Spice     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
David the ghosting on that marching clip is down to my video edit software probably.

I did some raw slow motion 10fps edits last night using VirtualDub and posted them in my FB group.
Flawless.

My work flow is either tiff or jpg scan, manual exposure.
VirtualDub crop and 18fps
export as h264.

Here is today's jpg full sharpness and manual exposure scan

9100 jpg images. 9.23Gb. Compressed to 950mb in VDub.

Thank you for your kind comments on my testing, a lot of testing, a lot of knowledge exchange.

Using the IC software now is very simple, have the VIEW menu show you toolbars, and you can change exposure scene to scene without stopping, or you can just stop the scanner, turn off 'external trigger' to get live view back, make changes, and re start the external trigger, start the scanner, and you're off again...

I have been making exposure changes on the fly today...

[ October 28, 2019, 03:02 AM: Message edited by: Mike Spice ]

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Stan Jelavic
Master Film Handler

Posts: 314
From: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jan 2019


 - posted October 27, 2019 02:02 PM      Profile for Stan Jelavic   Email Stan Jelavic   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Great work Mike. You put in a big effort and the results are showing that.
As a side note, notice a bit of a flicker at the start of scenes. Is it the auto white balance doing that. Not a big deal but still something to double check.

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Mike Spice
Master Film Handler

Posts: 421
From: none of your business
Registered: Jun 2017


 - posted October 27, 2019 02:14 PM      Profile for Mike Spice     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
flicker at the beginning, that would be the projectionist putting his cigarette out and not paying attention...

Cheers Stan, it is now going well, after my friday night hic up.

At the moment I am just scanning film, I am not paying attention much to small details, just scan after scan and learning what the software is capable of.

refinement will come one day soon....

For now, just scanning, and seeing what I can achieve.

The fancy pants stuff can come in the next lesson.

I consider myself 40% up the ladder of the learning curve.

I am using auto white balance, so it could be that generating the flicker.

I am using manual exposure from here on in.

Auto exposure? no need to do that two times to a film.

[ October 27, 2019, 04:31 PM: Message edited by: Mike Spice ]

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Stan Jelavic
Master Film Handler

Posts: 314
From: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jan 2019


 - posted October 27, 2019 06:27 PM      Profile for Stan Jelavic   Email Stan Jelavic   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Possibly auto exposure hunting. Not a big deal.

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Keith Wilkinson
Junior
Posts: 1
From: Worthing, West Sussex, UK
Registered: Oct 2019


 - posted October 28, 2019 04:47 AM      Profile for Keith Wilkinson   Email Keith Wilkinson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I am new to the forum, but have been reading this thread with much interest. I have been doing 8mm transfers for some years thanks to my late father leaving me twenty years of material starting in the 1960’s. I haven’t got a Wolverine but use a modified Eumig projector and machine vision camera.
However, I thought Stan especially, would be interested in what can be done with the SDK from Imaging source. See this website:-
http://www.nightshade-arts.co.uk/telecine/postprocessing.html
Looks like the author has written something to replace IC Capture and is using a histogram to help with exposure settings. He also mentions something called “pixel binning” which reduces noise by combining pixels. Something that IC Capture can do.
Note to Bruce:- to save Video Fred’s script without the dual window take the “S” out of the Result line.
ie Result=result1 instead of Result=results1

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Mike Spice
Master Film Handler

Posts: 421
From: none of your business
Registered: Jun 2017


 - posted October 28, 2019 06:43 AM      Profile for Mike Spice     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
My naive curiosity got the better of me, reading the nightshade link.

He talks about 'binning' being set to 2.

I thought, I should try it...folly not to...
It crashed my pc and the IC software wouldn't run again until I uninstalled it, and re installed it again.

Working fine again now. No idea why, just a heads up to other curious folk who might be tempted.

In other news, I had a reply from Imaging Source help dept.

Really helpful trying to work out why I was having a problem.
I sent a reply back saying the problem was me, and now solved and thank you .

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Stan Jelavic
Master Film Handler

Posts: 314
From: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jan 2019


 - posted October 28, 2019 09:27 AM      Profile for Stan Jelavic   Email Stan Jelavic   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ouch, better stay away from pixel binning Mike. Not sure why this would crash the PC. My best guess is that the feature is not implemented properly and stalls the camera. IC capture must have a high priority thread that waits for the cam response and with no response it is hogging the PC and that state is saved in registry. Or something similar.
But thank you for raising a red flag.
Thanks Keith for the link. It is interesting and it is similar to what I had in my mind.
A few interesting points
6 to 7 frames per second? We get only 1 frame per 2 seconds. He is grabbing a smaller frame but still his implementation seem to run much faster.
Binning could be useful... Less noise and faster.
Histogram could be useful. Can keep an eye on it and adjust exp and gamma when it misbehaves.

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Bruce Davis
Film Handler

Posts: 47
From: Adelaide, Australia
Registered: Sep 2019


 - posted October 28, 2019 11:03 AM      Profile for Bruce Davis   Author's Homepage   Email Bruce Davis   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Keith Wilkinson
Thanks for the thoughtful reply, I asked in video fred's forum about this and was given the same information. I read the user guide documentation but completely missed this.
Regards - Bruce

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