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Topic: Review Wolverine Reels2Digital MovieMaker 8mm film digitizer

Terry Dowling
Junior
Posts: 24
From: Ashford, Kent, UK
Registered: Sep 2019

posted November 12, 2019 05:42 AM

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I have been scanning all my family films with Wolverine pro I recently bought, while waiting for parts for Hawkeye mod. I have noticed quite often I get black spots in the video and found there is dirt sitting on the light. I clean it after every scan, but sometimes happens during scan and only notice at the end so have to end up doing scan over. This even happens after I have cleaned the film using filmguard.

Has anyone tried using their Wolverine on it's back to avoid dirt falling on light?

EDIT: have just seen post by Markus Baur running Wolverine on it's back. Going to try this out.

[ November 15, 2019, 05:52 PM: Message edited by: Terry Dowling ]

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Kamel Ikhlef
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 213
From: Arches, France
Registered: Oct 2018

posted November 12, 2019 07:36 AM

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Terry, I designed a magnetic door for the original wolverine, If you are interrested, I can share the Design on thingiverse. You can modify it for your needs. [Smile]

[Smile]

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Stan Jelavic
Master Film Handler

Posts: 314
From: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jan 2019

posted November 12, 2019 07:40 AM

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Will run a test clip with the settings I have with lots of shadows and blue sky.
I also noticed black spots. Not sure where they are coming from.

Bruce, are you running with auto white balance turned on. If so, try turning it off. You can try my settings or tweak it to your liking. For me auto white balance does not work well.

This morning I took a picture of the film that I tested last night with the microscope.
This is what I got:
Blue sky grain in the film:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZJHLgJ9LuQoGDQYh9

Film colors:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/hf7ZUKBWAFHteaJX9

Hawkeye:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/AgjjHdJrEbbFYUar5

Wolverine:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/rqsRAnAAjQyXTXSw9

It looks like the film is grainy and Hawkeye is reproducing that. But this can be fixed in post-processing. It is good to get as close to the original as possible to make sure no info is lost.

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Terry Dowling
Junior
Posts: 24
From: Ashford, Kent, UK
Registered: Sep 2019

posted November 12, 2019 09:16 AM

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Markus, I quite like the idea of the micro switch you added. Is this connected directly to the motor wiring? Is it possible to take a side view photo of how you have mounted this please? Just wondering how the switch would hold up with constant friction on it?

Kamel, yes I would be interested in seeing your magnetic door design:)

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Kamel Ikhlef
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 213
From: Arches, France
Registered: Oct 2018

posted November 12, 2019 11:39 AM

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I added the magnetic Door 3D Design on thingiverse :
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3891738

you will have to stick with double-sided tape small magnetic media. For the Hawkeye Mods users, I think for a different Design.
Have Fun...

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Terry Dowling
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From: Ashford, Kent, UK
Registered: Sep 2019

posted November 12, 2019 01:28 PM

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Thanks Kamel, looks great!

Does anyone know what kind of light is used in the Wolverine moviemaker?

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Markus Baur
Junior
Posts: 7
From: Redwood City, CA, USA
Registered: Nov 2019

posted November 12, 2019 08:53 PM

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Now only 5 pages to go before I'm caught up with the Hawkeye mod.

Terry, here is an image how I wired my microswitch. I cut the positive wire between the controller board and the takeup motor and spliced my switch in there. This is how it looks from the side. And another short video showing the machine in operation from the side. I used a little bit of double sided tape to cover the actuator of the switch behind a short piece of plastic tube cut in half.

I am really not very fond of the solution, but it has worked nicely so far. With the Hawkeye mod there are a lot more and better options. In general the takeup and supply reel need to be loosely coupled with the actual advancing mechanism - whether that is a kapstan or a claw. Ideally I'd like to see a small bit of adjustable tension on both the supply and takeup side. But they cannot be fixed as the supply reel will need more and more torque over time as the reel becomes heavier and the point of tension moves farther away from the center of the reel. And likewise the opposite holds true for the supply side.

And that whole tension thing leads me to another gripe I (and a lot of the other members in this thread) have. The "rollers" not being actual rollers. Kamel has the right design I believe. But it could have been so easy. Here is a roller from a broken editor that would have been ideal for the transport:

I wish I had more of these or knew where / how to get them. Using curved metal rollers so the film will only touch with its edges with low friction wouldn't have added more than a few cents to the cost of manufacturing the Wolverine!

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David Brown
Film Handler

Posts: 42
From: Centerville, UT, USA
Registered: Oct 2019

posted November 12, 2019 10:52 PM

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Terry I could not find the lamp online, nothing in the Wolverine manual. You could probably remove it from the bottom door.

Certainly, it's LED and will never burn out. It has a slightly blue cast, though I read someone describe it as orange?

This is the IC software that I'm using with a microscope camera. It's on auto white balance because I can't adjust anything. It has other software and I find it interesting that it can be run with the IC for the Hawkeye. If all three color curves match, it's balanced. So much easier with an eyedropper!

https://flic.kr/p/2hK6V1S

I wonder if there is more sophisticated capture software that can be used with these board cameras?

I've been using an led light source to copy 35mm slides and 8mm frames. When I white balance to the light source, most everything looks good.

And here is a comparison with the Wolverine's light source compared to a flash. Not useful for anyone, though you can see where the Wolverine sits in the color spectrum.

picture balanced to the circled square

https://flic.kr/p/2hK5LGy

picture balanced to the Wolverine

https://flic.kr/p/2hK39Vp

Marcus

Look here https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3891738
You can have Thingyverse or others print for you.

It's two pieces and rotates well.

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Markus Baur
Junior
Posts: 7
From: Redwood City, CA, USA
Registered: Nov 2019

posted November 13, 2019 12:11 AM

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I was wondering if a roller mounted on a swivel arm and the swivel arm held in position with a spring could be a solution to provide a constant, well defined amount of tension? The swivel arm could have a feedback element like my micro switch give input to the controller on when to engage the take up motor and when to back off.

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Bruce Davis
Film Handler

Posts: 47
From: Adelaide, Australia
Registered: Sep 2019

posted November 13, 2019 01:54 AM

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Kamel Ikhlef Hi I probably missed the purpose of the Magnetic Door, what it does and where it is fitted. Looked into your PDF file but did not see any reference, could you please clarify.
Thanks - Bruce

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Kamel Ikhlef
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 213
From: Arches, France
Registered: Oct 2018

posted November 13, 2019 03:05 AM

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It's just to hide the shooting frame. Protect from dust and external parasitic light. But for hawkeye users, it will have to think another design. I work there ... All ideas are welcome.

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Terry Dowling
Junior
Posts: 24
From: Ashford, Kent, UK
Registered: Sep 2019

posted November 13, 2019 06:01 AM

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Thanks Markus, the stand you built looks great as well!

David, I was hoping the light could be improved as mine doesn't seem to have very uniform lighting.

I have stripped it down to have a look and doesn't look like there is any room to change to anything else. It looks like it possibly has side LEDs.

When trying to do a DIY setup before I used a COB LED (shown below) with opal perspex to diffuse light and had very good results.

[ November 15, 2019, 05:45 PM: Message edited by: Terry Dowling ]

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Stan Jelavic
Master Film Handler

Posts: 314
From: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jan 2019

posted November 13, 2019 07:45 AM

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Regarding Bob Vito post:
Has anyone experienced multiple frame captures for each frame advance?

I found out yesterday that older Hawkeye boards have an issue with the frame sync. Sometimes it will miss the frames. Could potentially be the cause of Bob's issues.
Resistor R2 value was 3K, the same as Wolverine. Had to change it to 2.2k. So, check your boards to make sure they have the right value.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/8K7a4FHjPXcxbs8eA

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Kamel Ikhlef
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 213
From: Arches, France
Registered: Oct 2018

posted November 13, 2019 08:19 AM

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Hi Stan,
Well back from your Holidays? ... Now, we look forward to the future v8 PCB with various and great upgrades (Power led, USb, Capstan,Sync Takeup, etc...). LOL. [Smile]

[Smile]

[Wink]

thanks for the R2 new value information.

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Stan Jelavic
Master Film Handler

Posts: 314
From: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jan 2019

posted November 13, 2019 10:02 AM

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Thanks Kamel. I am back and all's well.
Yes will start on V8 within a few days.
Looked at the Hawkeye image issues and came up with the white balance manual setting procedure. Will document it but have a look:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/4m6f4S3gerxFXm6j7

The colors are very close. Ran a video clip last night and very happy with it.

Would like to point out to some key differences between Hawkeye and Wolverine:
- Much less digital effects - zoom in on this sample photo and look at the leaves on the trees and compare.
- Ran video last night and compared the faces closeups and it is a big difference. Hawkeye faces look natural and Wolverine look like wax dolls - very distorted.
- Frame capture - you know what I mean
- OK on some very dark scenes looks like Wolverine is better but that is about it.

My vote is HAWKEYE, big time.

Will document the latest settings and white balance procedure I used and yes a side by side video with the comments.

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David Brown
Film Handler

Posts: 42
From: Centerville, UT, USA
Registered: Oct 2019

posted November 13, 2019 11:20 AM

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Stan
In that last sample Hawkeye wins hands down with the color balance! Great effort!
Is there visible digital noise, not including film grain? The Wolverine only looks good if viewed on it's own screen, from a distance!

Kamel

Did you decide to order the 12mm macro lens? I know there is a long wait for delivery. I printed the Magnetic Door last night. Looks good on my (still) stock Wolverine. However I no longer use the stock Wolverine to capture film!

Terry
My lamp looks round and it might pull out. I did not try. If the illumination you have covers the captured frame you could be ok, but I would want to change it out. Sounds like you have some experience there. I've had to use 1/8"(3mm) white plastic to diffuse whatever light source I've tried.

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Mike Spice
Master Film Handler

Posts: 421
From: none of your business
Registered: Jun 2017

posted November 13, 2019 12:09 PM

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I have every faith in Hawkeye and I am glad to see Stan back behind his desk!

There is NO question Hawkeye can spit out better results.
I have made some significantly better results, but I have made some results that would leave you running for the hills.

Re the white balance thing.

It would appear white balance needs to be manual, that said, would it not be better to white balance a blank gate with LED, or to white balance a scene in a frame of film?

If the latter applies, then what happens when a scene changes.

I have made a note of Stans settings further back, and am looking forward to clicking the mouse this weekend on a reel of standard 8mm, and finding a good 'partial scan area' for standard 8.

Should we be looking at the light source of the scanner, and considering a change there too, or some kid of diffuse?

[ November 13, 2019, 01:57 PM: Message edited by: Mike Spice ]

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Markus Baur
Junior
Posts: 7
From: Redwood City, CA, USA
Registered: Nov 2019

posted November 13, 2019 03:29 PM

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Mike, the best way of setting white balance all depends on what you have available:

In my experience from working with my Nikon based rig, the best way to set white balance is from the film you are trying to capture. If you have a frame that is mostly white or gray, perfect. If not, I'd go with a film from the same batch in the same condition that does have a suitable frame.

And the stock non adjustable white balance of the Wolverine is indeed horrible as seen in previous capture examples. The common theme is the blue tinge on things that should be black. Here is a comparison of the same frame captured with the Wolverine and my Nikon J1(the stock has faded over the decades, so the red tinge is what you get if you capture without setting white balance):

I don't think I need to label those two images for you to know which is which [Big Grin]

[Big Grin]

And I can't wait to see how the Hawkeye will compare.

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Mike Spice
Master Film Handler

Posts: 421
From: none of your business
Registered: Jun 2017

posted November 13, 2019 04:16 PM

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Thank You Marcus

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David Brown
Film Handler

Posts: 42
From: Centerville, UT, USA
Registered: Oct 2019

posted November 13, 2019 04:32 PM

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Mike
We've missed your tireless testing!

My feeling is the Wolverine's light is great. It's bright and evenly iluminated. I only ran about 200 feet of film when I decided to find a fix for how bad it looks. White balance the empty gate once, move on. I don't think LEDs color shift with age. There might be some unusual film scenes where someone used indoor film outdoors or used colored lighting. That might be a special case to adjust the balance.

You have run thousands of feet thru yours, how's your light doing? LEDs seem to keep on ticking. Terry's unit has an unusual problem that I've not heard of from others. I mentioned the plastic diffuser not knowing what's inside his unit and he already has a lamp. Many lights, including LEDs, I tried before the Wolverine had hot spots on the capture.

So, If it were me, I'd try to get Wolverine to send me a new lamp. No one is selling parts unless it's a broken unit. You had great success getting your motor(s) replaced.

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Bruce Davis
Film Handler

Posts: 47
From: Adelaide, Australia
Registered: Sep 2019

posted November 13, 2019 07:16 PM

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Stan Jelavic
Quote "Had to change it to 2.2k. So, check your boards to make sure they have the right value".

Looked at the 5 Band Resistor Color Code and the resistor on the one you built for me is a 2K7.
Measured with multi-meter and came out at 2.72K.

Thanks for the time and effort you have put into comparing Wolverine with Hawkeye, not wanting to be negative (just my opinion), but how much time did you spend getting the Hawkeye image to that level compared to the Wolverine.
I do not have a Wolverine to compare, but I assume one just loads the film and the Wolverine does the rest without time consuming settings at each scene change.

At extreme close up there is a difference in pixel structure and size, there is more detail in the Hawkeye image, but at full image viewing size who is going to see the difference (Hawkeye is more contrasty-grainy, Wolverine image seems balanced-smoother).

As Mike has previously mentioned, the bleeding of light at the edge of the frame is also a problem with some settings.

Thanks again and regards - Bruce

P.S. at this stage I am having some larger 400-500ft reels processed by the MWA FLASHSCAN-8 with very good results. Small 50 reels are being done on the Hawkeye.

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Bob Vito
Junior
Posts: 14
From: Otisville, MI, USA
Registered: Oct 2019

posted November 13, 2019 07:25 PM

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The resistor on my board has three red stripes which should be 2.2K ohms. I am following the procedures that have been posted for frame capture, but haven't been able to figure out how to get one capture for each frame. The number of captures in my setup is affected by the fps field in IC capture. The smallest number of captures I have been able to get is two per frame. My current process is to delete every other file and rename the remaining files - somewhat annoying, but I can live with it.

--------------------
Bob

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Stan Jelavic
Master Film Handler

Posts: 314
From: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jan 2019

posted November 13, 2019 09:05 PM

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Happy to see so much activity. My main problem is that this is very time consuming and cannot look into everything but one step at the time.
Let me try to address some concerns the best I can and then have to clean up the test film. It has dirt on it and that annoys me.

Is there visible digital noise, not including film grain.

The sample Hawkeye video has visibly less digital noise that Wolverine. I used the jpag max quality and camera sharpening set to max (14) but have not tested the tiffs or bmps so not sure how much difference this would give us. Maybe Mike can comment here. I am pretty happy with what I saw. The film grain on some scenes does not bother me. Actually I like it.
With sharpening set to 0 the frames a =re a bit soft.

It would appear white balance needs to be manual, that said, would it not be better to white balance a blank gate with LED, or to white balance a scene in a frame of film

I used the white paper in the gate. Here is the procedure:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1xqdSwcBfqWONn4_NDs9G94uAgod7JxRB/view?usp=sharing

If the latter applies, then what happens when a scene changes.
The scene should not affect the white balance - but will have to do more testing.

I have made a note of Stans settings further back
Check the new white balance values. They are in the pdf file I referenced.

And I can't wait to see how the Hawkeye will compare.
Limited tests look very promising to me but still early to tell.

but how much time did you spend getting the Hawkeye image to that level compared to the Wolverine.

The settings are done once and no significant changes should be required from scene to scene. This is based on my limited testing.

The resistor on my board has three red stripes which should be 2.2K ohms.

I will have to do some head scratching Bob. Sorry for the troubles. This needs fixing for sure.

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David Brown
Film Handler

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From: Centerville, UT, USA
Registered: Oct 2019

posted November 13, 2019 10:46 PM

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Stan Now you can say Thanksgiving has come early, your plate is so full!

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Lee Mannering
Film God

Posts: 3216
From: The Projection Box
Registered: Nov 2006

posted November 14, 2019 06:44 AM

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Always show an interest in modifications. Built various film to video transfer systems/ideas over the years the first being a rig in 1980 using the then new Fergy Videostar camera with a home made mirror rig and a trusty Eumig sound projector which was quite a play thing. My final project a couple of years ago was using another Eumig heavily modified and outed to full HD.
Here's a frame grab taken from a Super 8 film I shot using a Pathescope Super 8 cine camera in Holland.

Happy times

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