8mm Forum


  
my profile | my password | search | faq | register | forum home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» 8mm Forum   » 8mm Forum   » Review Wolverine Reels2Digital MovieMaker 8mm film digitizer (Page 53)

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!  
This topic comprises 56 pages: 1  2  3  ...  50  51  52  53  54  55  56 
 
Author Topic: Review Wolverine Reels2Digital MovieMaker 8mm film digitizer
Stan Jelavic
Master Film Handler

Posts: 314
From: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jan 2019


 - posted November 16, 2019 11:33 PM      Profile for Stan Jelavic   Email Stan Jelavic   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Looks like you have your Sunday planned well Mike. I spent some time today working on white balance and have a story to tell but too lazy at this point to write it all down.
In summary I tried to match the Wolverine colors and this are the settings. Came pretty close:
White balance mode = gray world
R = 125
G = 185
B = 77
Color Enhancement = Disabled
The rest of it is as specified in the settings document.

A few more notes. Tested the led by using the unloaded gate and setting the camera to daylight. It comes out bluish as expected.
 -

Wolverine compensate for that using their white balance. For now I just tried to mimic that by taking several Wolverine and Hawkeye frames and using the eyedropper found the white balance correction factors for Hawkeye. Now exactly the same but pretty close in my opinion.

Will provide the side by side clip tomorrow.

Here is the comparison between Wolverine, Daylight with MarkII and Hawkeye:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/Xkh2vNaEfQ8goRKi6

Update on duplicate images:
Will do the scan with the scope connected to frame trigger.

[ November 17, 2019, 05:27 AM: Message edited by: Stan Jelavic ]

 |  IP: Logged

Mike Spice
Master Film Handler

Posts: 421
From: none of your business
Registered: Jun 2017


 - posted November 17, 2019 09:41 AM      Profile for Mike Spice     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I managed to find some time to do a scan with some very tatty standard 8mm.
I used manual white balance & exposure

R 93
G 67
B 55
1/200th exposure
Sharpness 14

Standard 8mm test

[ November 18, 2019, 08:44 AM: Message edited by: Mike Spice ]

 |  IP: Logged

Kamel Ikhlef
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 213
From: Arches, France
Registered: Oct 2018


 - posted November 17, 2019 11:58 AM      Profile for Kamel Ikhlef   Email Kamel Ikhlef   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Mike,
there are still jig problems, I also see a fluctuation of the focus. As if the film was moving in its frame(8mm frame gate ?).
I see that with all your tests, this is not really obvious.
I would like to have a basic settings for a correct quality and after it will be easier to post process on a video software.

For my part, I will try to advance on the design of the front cover because I fell far behind the tests of scans compared to you.
I also think to a system to cool the camera because mine heats a lot. I would like a telecine unit completely closed.
In all cases, Thanks for tests sharing.
All days, I am looking for to see the everybody progress... [Wink]

 |  IP: Logged

Bruce Davis
Film Handler

Posts: 47
From: Adelaide, Australia
Registered: Sep 2019


 - posted November 17, 2019 05:56 PM      Profile for Bruce Davis   Author's Homepage   Email Bruce Davis   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Stan Jelavic Hi Stan thanks for your ongoing effort. I assume by your settings you meant:-
R=125
G=85 185 is very green
B=77

Regarding the stepper problem, since the last time I removed the MCU and re-inserted, it has been working. When powering the Hawkeye without the chip, the capstan motor runs at full speed. Due to the printed drive pulley not running true it causes the whole wolverine body to vibrate quite considerably, perhaps this has shaken a poor connection, we will see.

Regards - Bruce

P.S. Blue = 77 rather than 58 looks much better at my end.

 |  IP: Logged

Stan Jelavic
Master Film Handler

Posts: 314
From: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jan 2019


 - posted November 18, 2019 08:42 AM      Profile for Stan Jelavic   Email Stan Jelavic   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Was a typo Bruce. Yes you got it right, it is:
R=125
G=85
B=77

Lets hope it was a loose controller.
I ran a side by side Hawkeye and Wolverine video and the colors are pretty good now for me anyways but would like to see more contrast in the Hawkeye video.
Some preliminary observations show that the Wolverine auto exposure sets it to a bit overexposed side. This makes the shadows brighter but overexposes the bright areas.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/muS3JcpJMLGU2ACM9
This makes the Howkeye shadows too dark (not vivid)
But think Howkeye is actually better because it can be fixed in post-processing.

Another issues is that Hawkeye seems to be too sensitive at the low end. The dark tones get pushed up so that the histogram is zero at low end. Histogram stretching during post-processing should fix that also.

Here is the photoshop correction. Histogram stretch and reverse gamma that compensates for the original camera gamma correction.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/wGfXxNGniEMn6fuc6

[ November 18, 2019, 09:57 AM: Message edited by: Stan Jelavic ]

 |  IP: Logged

Doug Maxwell
Junior
Posts: 12
From: Charleston, WV, USA
Registered: Sep 2019


 - posted November 18, 2019 11:11 AM      Profile for Doug Maxwell     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I finally found some time to get my kit together. I put the camera on the board with the included spacers, but the bolts appear to be too long (1/4 inch... almost even with the camera lens) and the Hawkeye board won't sit flush on the Wolverine's metal platform. Am I missing a part? Wanted to check before I shortened the bolts.

I tried to include a picture, but I guess this forum software has a bunch of hoops to jump through to do that.

 |  IP: Logged

Bruce Davis
Film Handler

Posts: 47
From: Adelaide, Australia
Registered: Sep 2019


 - posted November 18, 2019 03:14 PM      Profile for Bruce Davis   Author's Homepage   Email Bruce Davis   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Doug Maxwell
Hi, adding pictures is very limited, max 200k and 550 res, follow the instructions and you will succeed.
Not sure if the following images are of any help to you, bolts holding the camera are upside down and there are spacers between the plate and board.
Regards - Bruce
 -
 -

 |  IP: Logged

Doug Maxwell
Junior
Posts: 12
From: Charleston, WV, USA
Registered: Sep 2019


 - posted November 18, 2019 04:04 PM      Profile for Doug Maxwell     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Oh yeah - a bit of a face/palm moment for me there. I'm annoyed that I didn't figure that out, actually. Spacers were correct of course, but I had the bolts going the wrong way. Thanks for the picture guidance.

 |  IP: Logged

Stan Jelavic
Master Film Handler

Posts: 314
From: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jan 2019


 - posted November 18, 2019 04:45 PM      Profile for Stan Jelavic   Email Stan Jelavic   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Looks like you are on the right track Doug.

Back to exposure.

Looking at post-processing tools to see if there is something out there that can do the histogram stretch and apply non-linear curve compensation. Preferably all in one tool.

Looks like Video Fred's script mat be a good candidate. If not will write my own.

 |  IP: Logged

David Brown
Film Handler

Posts: 42
From: Centerville, UT, USA
Registered: Oct 2019


 - posted November 18, 2019 11:01 PM      Profile for David Brown   Email David Brown   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Limited test of the "capstan" that keeps the film moving when stopped by torn sprocket holes.

First I intentionally cut out 6-7 sprocket holes on both R8mm and S8mm.
 -

The test is done with a momentary contact switch as I don't have the Hawkeye mod that would be automatic. When the "torn sprockets" pass the claw, the film stops advancing. The motor's pull seems to be stopped by the claw in the next good sprocket hole.

It works, however there are other problems I found.

 -

The best location for the sprocket (toothed pulley) is on the second existing position shown above. That is where I began. Using S8 with the gate closed, the claw down.

Problem: From position 2, the motor does not have enough torque to move the film. I then moved the sprocket to position 1. Pulls the film thru the gate very fast!

The second position 1 has less teeth (2-3) engaged with the film. The film contacts a smaller percentage of the sprocket.

 -

I used the standard Wolverine takeup & a reel without a drive key. Strong and Weak tension, with each the sprocket continues to rotate even when the teeth disengage.

My sprocket wobbles. I tried more than one sprocket.

sprocket video

I'm not sure why it wobbles. I will investigate. Projectors often have a clamp or secondary wheel to maintain contact with the film and sprocket.

 -

I don't want to add more parts or complexity to this process.
Making the teeth longer (not much longer) or fixing the wobble is best.

That said, all the tests I did with torn sprocket holes S8 & R8 were successful while capturing. The film stops moving, push the button, it resumes.

 -

Gate tension is a spring-loaded channel that presses on the outside edges of the film.

I did also have 1 R8 film that could not be moved by the motor from position 1. There was more friction in the gate (?), but only when closed. Looks like I can't adjust the gate tension screws without dismantling the Wolverine. This seems also likely to happen with magnetic striping on S8. Seems I've read of width differences with R8. Caused by the splitter when processed? The film base itself is not thicker than S8.

Also, torn sprockets could be repaired with a single side of Kodak presstape. Damage would be discovered while cleaning the film. If the sprocket perforation damage is extensive, capturing the film will be missing as many frames. Then another method of capture is called for.

I had a cement splice that always stopped outside the gate. Saddly it was broken before I could test it. The motor probably could not pull a bad splice. Not much torque there before reaching speed.

Kamel The R8 sprocket
 -

 |  IP: Logged

Stan Jelavic
Master Film Handler

Posts: 314
From: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jan 2019


 - posted November 19, 2019 12:15 AM      Profile for Stan Jelavic   Email Stan Jelavic   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
As I mentioned in my previous post I had issues with the black level and gamma and was looking on the ways of fixing it.
Looks like Fiml9 has the capability of correcting teh histogram (black level) and fixing the gamma.
Here is my settings:
 -

And here is the result. Hawkeye on the left and Wolverine on the right.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/HF1JHc7pDW1LxA6j9

 |  IP: Logged

Bruce Davis
Film Handler

Posts: 47
From: Adelaide, Australia
Registered: Sep 2019


 - posted November 19, 2019 03:16 AM      Profile for Bruce Davis   Author's Homepage   Email Bruce Davis   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Stan Jelavic
Film9 is certainly much easier to use and adjustments are immediately review-able. Video Fred's script, the process is much slower and I think more difficult to use but results are good once set.

Reviewing your side by side video the Hawkeye seems to have more blue/purple in some scenes, other scenes are comparable, the green grass seems a little too green in some shots.

Getting the colour balance & grey scale right is very difficult, I do not know if it is a camera thing or software (probably just software setting going by your results).

You have certainly been able to achieve better than I.

Are these the only settings you have activated and used in film9.

Regards - Bruce

 |  IP: Logged

Kamel Ikhlef
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 213
From: Arches, France
Registered: Oct 2018


 - posted November 19, 2019 03:47 AM      Profile for Kamel Ikhlef   Email Kamel Ikhlef   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
David,
Your tests are very very interesting!
This allows we to move forward.
For the R8, the gears look to match well. I did the design without film to test...
You're right, position 2 looks better for the position of the capstan.
But then we should find another capstan motor more powerful?
Any suggestions is good to take.
Stan will be more competent to better advise us...

I do not understand for the wobble problem? is it pulley straight in the axis of the motor ?

the motor 2mm axis is round without flat for effective blocking.
If we could find an other motor with a different axis it would be easy to change the pulley design.

Thank you very much for sharing your experiences.

BTW: What kind of filament did you use for 3D printing? The teeth of the pulley look very good. [Smile]

Bruce, what did you put to block the lens focus, it's white teflon ?... I block with several rings.

[ November 20, 2019, 10:30 AM: Message edited by: Kamel Ikhlef ]

 |  IP: Logged

Stan Jelavic
Master Film Handler

Posts: 314
From: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jan 2019


 - posted November 19, 2019 09:58 AM      Profile for Stan Jelavic   Email Stan Jelavic   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Definitely needs more work. Referring to white balance.

 |  IP: Logged

Doug Maxwell
Junior
Posts: 12
From: Charleston, WV, USA
Registered: Sep 2019


 - posted November 19, 2019 10:12 AM      Profile for Doug Maxwell     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I did my first test scan last evening with the Hawkeye upgrade. Very pleased. Of course, the scan quality depends greatly on the source material... I have a roll of S8 of a mystery family at Disney. It came with a lot of used film gear I bought in the 90s. It's my go to test roll because of no sentimental value. It's bright and vivid and mostly in focus and has lots of different colors (bright reds and yellows, good greys, etc) and hot spots and dark areas throughout.

Scanned on auto settings into jpeg images. I imported it into Adobe Premiere Elements and reduced the speed to get it close to 18 fps. Cropped and exported at 1080.

1 minute 57 seconds of jpegs was about 3 gig, which is not shocking. I wanted to go as big as possible and this is a good start.

Premiere Elements is rather frustrating when you're used to the full house Final Cut Pro, so I couldn't center and enlarge the image, but I'll sort that out eventually.

I have another roll scanning. I'll be doing a lot more experimenting. Any updates or lessons worth mentioning will be posted.

Side note, I didn't use the takeup reel and instead let the film dangle into a clean plastic tote and then rewound it with a mechanical rewind. This method didn't seem to affect the gate quality.

Scan is uploaded here.

https://youtu.be/9KwIBGx0z5w

 |  IP: Logged

Mike Spice
Master Film Handler

Posts: 421
From: none of your business
Registered: Jun 2017


 - posted November 19, 2019 11:43 AM      Profile for Mike Spice     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Doug It looks really very very good, but I am curious as to how it ended up looking like that at youtube.

As close to 'film' as I have so far seen...

While the scan looks nice, the box effect of a small scan in a 16:9 window is a bit odd...

Perhaps it is just a test upload for us to see....

Consider making a 4:3 project and exporting in 4:3

I am taking a cheeky day off on wednesday and just for the heck of it, I am going to scan black and white cine film...

Bring on the contrast!

 |  IP: Logged

Doug Maxwell
Junior
Posts: 12
From: Charleston, WV, USA
Registered: Sep 2019


 - posted November 19, 2019 01:08 PM      Profile for Doug Maxwell     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thank you. I exported it out of Adobe Premiere Elements with a built in setting. Basically a 1080 export to watch on a computer. There are many other options that I'll explore. The two minutes of footage exported to my hard drive was 451 mb. I'm purposely starting with big files because my system is pretty quick and hard drive space is cheap.

I rambled about the '4:3 in a 16:9' pillar box look in a past post. It's basically to preserve the 4:3 image and keep it from being stretched out to fill a 16:9 frame. I didn't intend it to be that small and off center, but I'm learning a new editing system and all the obvious stuff is made overly complicated in the version I'm using. My goal is to have it full screen top to bottom with some black on the sides to preserve the 4:3. Still playing with everything... I might change things later on.

Still much to learn and play with.

 |  IP: Logged

Mike Spice
Master Film Handler

Posts: 421
From: none of your business
Registered: Jun 2017


 - posted November 19, 2019 01:35 PM      Profile for Mike Spice     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It is a learning curve without doubt.

[ November 19, 2019, 10:46 PM: Message edited by: Mike Spice ]

 |  IP: Logged

David Brown
Film Handler

Posts: 42
From: Centerville, UT, USA
Registered: Oct 2019


 - posted November 19, 2019 08:51 PM      Profile for David Brown   Email David Brown   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
DOUG
That looked great on my monitor. I'm referring to the colors and the tonal range. I'd be happy with that capture!

That said, I'm wondering if we are all seeing the same things? I had a different reaction to Stans's last test than Bruce. I thought the Wolverine looked too green and too much saturation.

I think if you have multiple displays, view your captures on each. Mike was concerned about getting his TV adjusted. He's right if that is to be his standard.

I had someone point me to this website for monitor adjustment. I'm not saying anyone should use it, I looked at it and wondered when I would have enough time to understand and use it. For reference only! Monitor adjustment

I'd say if you have access to 3 monitors and your captures all look similar, your probably ok.

A quick question for Stan
Digikey is sold out of these through the end of the year.
 -

I can buy 2 on Amazon for $14 each, or other sites sell a minimum of 25 - 40 @ $1 each.

I look at the Wolverine's board and I think I see three of these being used. That would be all I need. That board will become useless anyway.

Am I right?

 |  IP: Logged

Bruce Davis
Film Handler

Posts: 47
From: Adelaide, Australia
Registered: Sep 2019


 - posted November 19, 2019 09:04 PM      Profile for Bruce Davis   Author's Homepage   Email Bruce Davis   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Kamel Ikhlef Quote " Bruce, what did you put to block the lens focus, it's white teflon ?... I block with several rings. "
The unit I have was built by Stan Jelavic, it does not have the 3D printed lens adapter but looks like metal. The lens only just screws into the adapter thread by about 2 turns. Stan used Teflon tape perhaps to seal against light or perhaps to add friction on the thread to stop it rotating by itself, Not sure.

Doug Maxwell, your capture seems very dark, have you compared the image quality between projection and Hawkeye. I still get better resuts by capturing the projected film/images with my smart phone from the projector.
Have you tried using VirtualDub v2_43803 and AVISynth v2.6 official, I find this combination (mainly using VirtualDub, AviSynth allows running Scripts like Video Fred) for me is better than trying to wrestle with premiere.

David Brown Hawkeye is on the left and yes I mentioned the grass seemed too green.

 |  IP: Logged

Stan Jelavic
Master Film Handler

Posts: 314
From: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jan 2019


 - posted November 19, 2019 11:05 PM      Profile for Stan Jelavic   Email Stan Jelavic   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Not sure what you need David.

Hawkeye needs those for:
- power switch (RUN)
- Fan sw
- 5V supply

Do you need extra cables?

Bruce I used Teflon for friction. Not sure now but I believe your lens holder does not have adjustment screw and without Teflon it would be loose making the focus unstable.

Regarding the video I posted. The grass is too green and in some scenes the colors are off. I will compare it against the daylight. On a positive note the shadows are no longer washed out and the resolution in the dark areas is pretty good.
Generally looks like the Hawkeye rez is same as Wolverine and in some cases better and definitely less digital artifacts.

 |  IP: Logged

Doug Maxwell
Junior
Posts: 12
From: Charleston, WV, USA
Registered: Sep 2019


 - posted November 20, 2019 08:51 AM      Profile for Doug Maxwell     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Widely varying monitor quality has certainly been a long term issue since everything went digital. My big computer uses a 50" 4K LG OLED TV for a monitor. It is also the TV I watch most of my TV and movies on, so I have spent much time tweaking the settings to make it look beautiful. The scan is a touch dark, I agree there. It was literally my first scan with the Hawkeye upgrade.

In film production world, there are generally two types of telecine transfers for film. A 'one light' and a 'scene to scene'. Pretty self explanatory. I haven't played with it enough yet to determine if the auto exposure setting on IC Capture adjusts the levels as it goes along (scene to scene) or gets an exposure with the first several frames and locks in that level for the rest (one light). Though in general, a projector is certainly considered 'one light' for obvious reasons, so it's just a question of finding the exposure level that makes the whole roll look good (assuming the source film is properly exposed). Anyway, I will be curious to see who has played around with the setting to get a proper exposure level from frame to frame.

A quick note about Premiere ... I will eventually be getting the full version of Adobe Premiere for some other projects, so I'm sure my current post scan woes will be eased. For now, I'm just in the slow lane feeling out the gears.

A general statement concerning colors, etc. My personal mantra for scanning and preserving family films for the future (FFftF?) is to have everything nice and sharp and visible. Color quality is certainly desired, but not #1. With that, I would say that in your scans, don't fight the film stock. Film stocks varied between manufacturer and had different looks and color tones. If greens and blues are a bit saturated, don't fight it (unless it's obviously wrong, of course). The natural inclination might be to make it look proper across the whole spectrum, but that might not be possible and, to me, would take away the charm a bit. Let the Kodak be a bit more red and yellow, let the Fuji be a bit more blue and green. They were made to be that way.

 |  IP: Logged

David Brown
Film Handler

Posts: 42
From: Centerville, UT, USA
Registered: Oct 2019


 - posted November 20, 2019 09:50 AM      Profile for David Brown   Email David Brown   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Bruce

Yes, I since reread your comments on Stan's capture and I agree with you. I have also checked Doug's capture on another monitor and found it a little dark. This means my computer's monitor is too bright. I guess I'll be checking that!

Stan I just thought I could reuse the 2 pin picoblades from the Wolverine. I will have all the parts except the camera and those 2 plugs. That's not including the V7 board. I've decided to wait for the V8. Don't want to do a face/palm and say, " I could've had a V8!"

[ November 20, 2019, 03:48 PM: Message edited by: David Brown ]

 |  IP: Logged

Doug Maxwell
Junior
Posts: 12
From: Charleston, WV, USA
Registered: Sep 2019


 - posted November 20, 2019 01:59 PM      Profile for Doug Maxwell     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
What are the changes made for V8?

 |  IP: Logged

David Brown
Film Handler

Posts: 42
From: Centerville, UT, USA
Registered: Oct 2019


 - posted November 20, 2019 03:54 PM      Profile for David Brown   Email David Brown   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Kamel
I just wanted to be certain of a proper print. I have no PETG yet. I went to https://www.shapeways.com/
Took a week, they are located in NY & The Netherlands.

Although there was a choice of steel or aluminum, there was no ABS or PetG!

MJF Plastic PA12
Also known as HP Multi Jet Fusion PA12, Professional Plastic, HP Nylon Plastic, PA12, Polyamide
Multi Jet Fusion (MJF) Plastic PA12 is HP's nylon plastic with excellent mechanical properties and a slightly grainy finish.

Common Applications
Mechanical & structural parts, mounts, cases, eye frames, tech accessories, drone parts, home décor, miniatures, art, prosthetics

 |  IP: Logged



All times are Central
This topic comprises 56 pages: 1  2  3  ...  50  51  52  53  54  55  56 
 
   Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic    next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:

Visit www.film-tech.com for free equipment manual downloads. Copyright 2003-2019 Film-Tech Cinema Systems LLC

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.3.1.2