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Author Topic: Review Wolverine Reels2Digital MovieMaker 8mm film digitizer
Kamel Ikhlef
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 213
From: Arches, France
Registered: Oct 2018


 - posted November 20, 2019 03:58 PM      Profile for Kamel Ikhlef   Email Kamel Ikhlef   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
OK David, Thanks for your feedback.

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Stan Jelavic
Master Film Handler

Posts: 314
From: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jan 2019


 - posted November 20, 2019 10:11 PM      Profile for Stan Jelavic   Email Stan Jelavic   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Oops forgot that you will do your own board David. Don't think you can reuse any of the Wolverine cables. I would send you some of mine but I am also running low and have them on backorder from Digikey.
But you can use there from amazon:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B013JRWCBU/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o05_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

They are 3" long which should be ok. These cables are also used for fan extension.

The changes for V8:
- better usb connection
- possible capstan improvement
- power leds

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Kamel Ikhlef
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 213
From: Arches, France
Registered: Oct 2018


 - posted November 21, 2019 04:26 AM      Profile for Kamel Ikhlef   Email Kamel Ikhlef   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
In the wish list, it would be perfect if the takeup motor problem was fixed because emptying into a trash is not really a solution (it is one of the biggest telecine defect of frame jig). another thought would be to provide a 12v output with a switch for a other fan to cool the camera (optional). let's be crazy it's soon Christmas. [Wink] [Smile]

[ November 21, 2019, 07:42 AM: Message edited by: Kamel Ikhlef ]

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Stan Jelavic
Master Film Handler

Posts: 314
From: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jan 2019


 - posted November 21, 2019 07:52 AM      Profile for Stan Jelavic   Email Stan Jelavic   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
 -

Possibly something like this Kamel. Based on your idea.
The MSP counts the frame pulses from the claw and knows how much the film advanced. It then the pulses the takeup motor until the count from capstan matches the number of claw cycles.

if the film is stuck there will be no input from capstan and in that case it will pulse the capstan and turn off the takeup until the jam is cleared.

The film routing will have to be different but just a general idea.

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Kamel Ikhlef
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 213
From: Arches, France
Registered: Oct 2018


 - posted November 21, 2019 09:39 AM      Profile for Kamel Ikhlef   Email Kamel Ikhlef   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Stan,
Unfortunately, we can not put the capstan motor at this location for lack of space, the shaft hole is too low (or it would be necessary to drill the front cover!).
In addition it would be necessary to reverse the direction of rotation of the motor !
Can not we desynchronize the winding of the film on the reel.
Waiting for a number of scanning frames before winding the film on the receiver reel (keep a loop of security). Finally an idea like that ... [Smile]

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David Brown
Film Handler

Posts: 42
From: Centerville, UT, USA
Registered: Oct 2019


 - posted November 21, 2019 08:24 PM      Profile for David Brown   Email David Brown   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Stan

Thanks for that link. I already have those connectors, and testing them, they fit the Wolverine 2p socket. I still have more orders to be delivered. So far then I will only be short the spacers. Sparkfun is backordered, I believe I will find some at Home Depot.

Looking over the parts and reading the Wolverine_custom_camera_kit-v2.

I might have misunderstood this process.

I guess I don't have a kit since all the parts are provided, less the camera?

Not worried yet and there's no rush.

I have flashed the Wolverine's OS a few times testing altered firmware I found online. Don't bother looking, it's not any better output, for those who might try to find it!
It was fairly easy to do, just boot with the new file on the SD card. I had to restore the original firmware.

Does the Hawkeye's OS load in a similar way onto the new board?

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Stan Jelavic
Master Film Handler

Posts: 314
From: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jan 2019


 - posted November 21, 2019 10:10 PM      Profile for Stan Jelavic   Email Stan Jelavic   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Just wanted to start the thinking process of combining the capstan and takeup Kamel. Th esolution that I proposed will not work but maybe something similar. Have to spend more time on it.
David, the flashing of the Hawkeye is not as simple as Wolverine but not very hard.
Here is some stuff from one of the previous posts:
The MSP430 sw is on the google drive in freq_gen2 folder. Drop this folder into your CCS workspace and compile it. Then you can flash the MSP430 using the launchpad.

I used this:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00HPLQS58/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?i e=UTF8&psc=1

The standalone part is:
MSP430G2231IN14 from Mouser.

You will need the Code Composer Studio from TI:
http://software-dl.ti.com/ccs/esd/documents/ccs_downloads.html

I can put a short video together on how I program the part.
Pretty straight forward.

BTW - I bought quite a few of the spacers from Sparkfun maybe depleted their stock [Smile]
Can send you 4 of them via regular mail.

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Markus Baur
Junior
Posts: 7
From: Redwood City, CA, USA
Registered: Nov 2019


 - posted November 22, 2019 02:29 AM      Profile for Markus Baur   Email Markus Baur   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Stan and Kamel,

I'm slowly getting the idea how the capstan and the take up are going to work together. The claw pulse tells how much film (different for R/8 and S/8) has moved past the gate. The real problem is that this doesn't tell the takeup how much angular rotation will be needed to wind this film. The fuller the takeup spool gets, the more film will be spooled for the same angular rotation. This is where the kapstan comes in:

For best feedback it should sit as closely as possible to the take up reel. And per Kamel's suggestion (which matches my experience with the microswitch) it should lag behind somewhere in the ballpark of 10-50 frames to leave a safety loop of film to prevent tugging at the claw. I don't think drilling a new hole into the metal plate should be a big issue if the motor gets in the way of the housing (not a problem in my setup). I'd rather have a well working system. And having a new, bigger plastic housing printed later shouldn't add too much to the cost if so desired.

And on a different note, to take up David's suggestion, wouldn't it possible to incorporate a USB bootloader into the MSP430 code? That way later code upgrades would be very simple for anybody with a Hawkeye. Something like this:

https://github.com/simpleavr/boot430

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Kamel Ikhlef
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 213
From: Arches, France
Registered: Oct 2018


 - posted November 22, 2019 05:14 AM      Profile for Kamel Ikhlef   Email Kamel Ikhlef   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'm not sure that drilling a new hole for a new capstan location improves something.
Several film paths should be tested and a winding delay of the film programmed. What do you think ? [Confused]

 -

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Stan Jelavic
Master Film Handler

Posts: 314
From: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jan 2019


 - posted November 22, 2019 09:35 AM      Profile for Stan Jelavic   Email Stan Jelavic   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Possibly use geared motor with the constant takeup tension. The geared motor would prevent the takeup from pulling the film at the gate and could advance slowly synchronized with the claw so that the film at the gate is always a bit loose.
https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/digilent,-inc./290-008/1286-1056-ND/4428833&?gclid=Cj0KCQiAq97uBRCwARIsADTziyYsKDEP0rsR3Qv2Mh9rOA_BfLrw82BwTZpuUSqIs-EdcEmux2Q1WzcaAjrsEAL w_wcB

Specs:
http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2022064.pdf?_ga=2.176909029.150716241.1574436457-2076060055.1574436457&_gac=1.24998216.1574436457.Cj0KCQiAq97uBRCwARIsADTziyZQknCdBOfrh2ZCxBhQZx9z 1mjtXmD5oOB06QuZNdG9tks-GsgNnPIaAlyyEALw_wcB

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Kamel Ikhlef
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 213
From: Arches, France
Registered: Oct 2018


 - posted November 22, 2019 11:14 AM      Profile for Kamel Ikhlef   Email Kamel Ikhlef   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Stan,

Very good idea, it's a good track to test. I will order one...
I will have to redo the design for the new motor support.
the datasheet of the link corresponds to the model 290-006 in 12v 639rpm. the 290-008 is a model in 6v 125rpm. which one to order (farnell)?

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Stan Jelavic
Master Film Handler

Posts: 314
From: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jan 2019


 - posted November 22, 2019 03:10 PM      Profile for Stan Jelavic   Email Stan Jelavic   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
12V is better since we already have 12V readily available. My thinking is that the geared motor will have enough reverse torque to prevent the takeup from pulling the film but that has to be verified.
The motor has the sensor, similar to the original motor so that the MSP can pulse it if the film gets stuck.

Here is the ordering info:
https://www.digikey.com/products/en/motors-solenoids-driver-boards-modules/motors-ac-dc/178?k=&pkeyword=&sv=0&pv14=87868&sf=0&FV=-8%7C178%2C-1%7C1286&quantity=&ColumnSort=0&page=1& pageSize=25

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Kamel Ikhlef
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 213
From: Arches, France
Registered: Oct 2018


 - posted November 22, 2019 04:49 PM      Profile for Kamel Ikhlef   Email Kamel Ikhlef   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Stan,
Here an other 12v 159rpm encoder motor.

https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/dfrobot/FIT0441/1738-1157-ND/6588579

Datasheet :

https://media.digikey.com/pdf/Data%20Sheets/DFRobot%20PDFs/FIT0441_Web.pdf

what do you think ?

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Stan Jelavic
Master Film Handler

Posts: 314
From: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jan 2019


 - posted November 22, 2019 10:44 PM      Profile for Stan Jelavic   Email Stan Jelavic   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Looks pretty good Kamel. One concern is that the gear motor has lots of torque and can do lots of damage to the film if something goes wrong.

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Kamel Ikhlef
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 213
From: Arches, France
Registered: Oct 2018


 - posted November 23, 2019 03:19 AM      Profile for Kamel Ikhlef   Email Kamel Ikhlef   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
AH! OK, It's better not to rush then ... I will not order at the moment and continue to think about a better solution. thanks a lot for the advice Stan.

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David Brown
Film Handler

Posts: 42
From: Centerville, UT, USA
Registered: Oct 2019


 - posted November 23, 2019 01:32 PM      Profile for David Brown   Email David Brown   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Kamel / Stan
I found the cause for the wobble of the motor sprocket. It's the set screw that locks it to the motor shaft. I printed several of those. They don't wobble before adding the inserts and the set screw. Thinking the insert was too large, I drilled the hole larger, and went too deep. That allowed the set screw to push the motor shaft off-center.

I can't think of how this new motor can function as both regulating the takeup speed and sensing the film movement. I will wait to hear more!

This morning I dismantled the takeup reel to examine the clutch (MovieMaker-PRO). There is no adjustment except to shorten the spring or replace it with a weaker spring. I'm going to find a weaker spring. The takeup rotates with the same speed and force when recording or rewinding. Too much for one and not enough for the other.

I don't use the rewind feature. It's faster to just use a pencil or small screwdriver and rotate the source reel. Either way, the film is dragged across the casing without holding a guide above the two reels.

Kamel
The hole on the end of the Back_Toothed_Pulley_v27 is too large for a 3mm insert. That one fastens to the Front_Toothed_Pulley_v27. I had to glue the insert with epoxy. I'm assuming that you will redesign the assembly for the new motor?

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Stan Jelavic
Master Film Handler

Posts: 314
From: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jan 2019


 - posted November 23, 2019 10:34 PM      Profile for Stan Jelavic   Email Stan Jelavic   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
David, the geared motor that we discussed can do both. The motor is geared with a high reverse torque. In another words if you try to turn the rotor by rotating the shaft you would experience very high resistance.
So, when the takeup pulls on the film the capstan will not move and the film will be under tension between the capstan and the takeup. The takeup can run continuous.
As the claw advances the MSP can advance the capstan the same amount so that the film between the claw and the capstan is loose. If the film gets stuck, the capstan torque may not be sufficient to pull it through and will stall the motor. The monitor pulses will stop and the MSP can increase the torque via the PWM pin.

But this is not a good solution. The geared motor torque is high and if it gets out of sync with the claw it could rip the film.

Possibly put the monitor capstan at the source pulley and geared motor on the takeup side. When the jam is detected the claw is disengaged and the geared motor pulsed. After that the claw is run several times and the monitor observed if the jam is cleared. This can be done several times until the jam is cleared. Once cleared the normal operation resumes.

All of this needs testing. The film may slip from the geared motor capstan because it has tension on one side and no tension on the other. A guide may be needed. This is actually similar to the old projectors - two capstans and lose loop of the film driven by the claw.

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David Brown
Film Handler

Posts: 42
From: Centerville, UT, USA
Registered: Oct 2019


 - posted November 24, 2019 12:35 AM      Profile for David Brown   Email David Brown   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Today I replaced the spring in the takeup slip clutch with a weaker one. This significantly changes the pull and ends the capture jitter from the takeup reel. Not hard to do in 15-20 minutes.

I was able to find springs at Home Depot.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Everbilt-Spring-Assortment-Kit-84-Pack-13554/203133714
 -

This is the web description. There could be 4 springs in the box, I pulled out 2.

For those who do not have a nearby Home Depot, The spring dimensions (measured from calipers) are below.

New spring on the right.
 -

original spring
 -

diameter of wire: 0.78mm
diameter of spring: 8.75mm
length of spring: 8.70mm

replacement spring (the one I picked)
 -

diameter of wire: 0.49mm
diameter of spring: 7.55mm
length of spring: 14.30mm

I can show the disassembled takeup if there is any interest.
Note: I was still able to rewind a 50-foot reel on the Wolverine.

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Bruce Davis
Film Handler

Posts: 47
From: Adelaide, Australia
Registered: Sep 2019


 - posted November 24, 2019 01:49 AM      Profile for Bruce Davis   Author's Homepage   Email Bruce Davis   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi David Brown, This is of interest to me, had always thought that the clutch friction was to high.
Thanks very much for posting, have not yet dis-assembled it.
Would be interested in seeing how it is put together.
Regards - Bruce

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Kamel Ikhlef
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 213
From: Arches, France
Registered: Oct 2018


 - posted November 24, 2019 03:37 AM      Profile for Kamel Ikhlef   Email Kamel Ikhlef   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
David,

I checked my 3D files design. I had no problem because ABS or PETG got a lot of printing retraction and I planned a little more large to compensate.
For other filaments, we would need surely reduce the diameter of the holes a little (maybe 4.25mm for M3 inserts).
Thanks for the return of experiences and thanks for the tips of the springs (improving the takeup).
The frames jig is one of the big problems of this telecinema!
This is very interesting because we always want to improve the telecine system.

 -

BTW : You can find a 4.25 diameter version on thingiverse : "Back_Toothed-Pulley-S8-v29" [Smile]

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3891738

[ November 24, 2019, 07:35 AM: Message edited by: Kamel Ikhlef ]

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Stan Jelavic
Master Film Handler

Posts: 314
From: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jan 2019


 - posted November 24, 2019 08:38 AM      Profile for Stan Jelavic   Email Stan Jelavic   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Great work David.
If this indeed works then the original capstan design will probably work. Hopefully the tension is strong enough to pull the capstan.

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David Brown
Film Handler

Posts: 42
From: Centerville, UT, USA
Registered: Oct 2019


 - posted November 24, 2019 04:51 PM      Profile for David Brown   Email David Brown   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Wolverine Slip Clutch on the takeup reel

OK, now I will rebuild the pulley assembly and test the force needed for the current capstan. After adding the lighter spring I ran the film right from the gate to the takeup reel.
All my pulleys came off with the motor.

If more tension is required, a heavier spring can be used.

The takeup reel spindle is held on with two screws. Warning, The 3 retaining clips are the type that often fly across the room during removal. Sometimes they are never found again!

The gear on the end of the shaft is pulled off with fingers.

Too many pictures to upload to this forum!

Takeup Slip Clutch

a long time later........

Stan Good call, "can this change in the takeup reel keep the capstan turning"? NO.

If I were not interested in the capstan, I would be done. I'd leave the takeup spring that I replaced, in. There is enough pull to wrap around 1 or 2 pulleys before the takeup reel, but the film will never stay tight.

It might take a pulling force equal to the original spring to keep the film tight on the capstan and keep it turning. The claw is pushing the film out of the gate with a strong force that pops it off the capstan. The takeup reel doesn't have any force beyond winding the film on the reel.

There is only a fixed amount of space for the compressed spring in the clutch. I have not measured that yet. The first spring I used was longer with thinner wire. A heavier spring I added was thicker than the available space and I had to keep cutting it down. This leaves an unfinished end that must be bent flat.

Cutting the original spring shorter is probably the best choice. But how much shorter? I don't want to lose the option to return to the original setup. I have many springs, but how do I quantify this process for others?

I'd say for Mike, get a lighter spring so the takeup can work without adding jumpy frames. He's not interested in the capstan.

I looked at a compression spring calculator, some of the input I don't have, and it may not even help with a slip clutch. I don't like to add complexity.

I'm out of testing time for a while. I would say to Stan, continue with the new motor, but only if it's fun!

[ November 24, 2019, 09:10 PM: Message edited by: David Brown ]

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Bruce Davis
Film Handler

Posts: 47
From: Adelaide, Australia
Registered: Sep 2019


 - posted November 24, 2019 09:15 PM      Profile for Bruce Davis   Author's Homepage   Email Bruce Davis   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
David Brown thank you, those images are very help full
Regards - Bruce

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Kamel Ikhlef
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 213
From: Arches, France
Registered: Oct 2018


 - posted November 25, 2019 04:14 AM      Profile for Kamel Ikhlef   Email Kamel Ikhlef   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks a lot David. every contribution to improve scan quality is always very useful.

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Stan Jelavic
Master Film Handler

Posts: 314
From: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jan 2019


 - posted November 25, 2019 08:07 AM      Profile for Stan Jelavic   Email Stan Jelavic   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thank you David. Nicely done. So we have a solution for the people that are not interested in capstan.
I will spend more time on capstan. Also, plan to test the delay between the claw and the takeup and the camera. Maybe the margin is too narrow.

Re:
Posted by Bob Vito (Member # 7168) on November 03, 2019, 02:42 PM:

Has anyone experienced multiple frame captures for each frame advance?

I checked the trigger spec for the camera and the current requirement for the camera trigger is 3.5 mA.
With the 2.2k resistor and 3.3V we drive it with only 1.5 mA.
With a low drive it is possible to have a flaky trigger. But, let me test it first with my unit because I am concerned that a low
resistor value could damage the Wolverine optical detector. I did have duplicate frames at one point and will see if I can reproduce that and then
sub the resistor.

[ November 25, 2019, 09:20 AM: Message edited by: Stan Jelavic ]

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