8mm Forum: Best lamp for Elmo GS1200 anno 2017. Also for my Elmo ST1200 and Bauer T610.

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Topic: Best lamp for Elmo GS1200 anno 2017. Also for my Elmo ST1200 and Bauer T610.

Paul Browning
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1006
From: West Midlands United Kingdom
Registered: Aug 2011

posted November 29, 2017 02:24 PM

Don't really understand your upload Matthieu, which lamp are you referring too....

Kevin i'll have the reflector off you when the lamp goes ....

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Kevin Clark
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 978
From: Bapchild, Kent, UK
Registered: May 2004

posted November 29, 2017 03:26 PM

It's all yours when it goes Paul just another (hopefully) 920 hours left........ most likely I will need to repair the projector for other things before then. I'll probably change it at 800 hours if still igniting as there will be some output drop off by then.

Another reason why I made the HID jump - the price of Xenon lamps for my now sold GS1200 Xenon were becoming farcically high - up up up every time I asked - hence the little HID150 for about £60 is exceptional value £ per hour wise and every bit as white and bright as my xenon ever was.

Kevin

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Matthieu van der Sluis
Master Film Handler

Posts: 373
From: Barendrecht, The Netherlands
Registered: Aug 2017

posted November 29, 2017 04:45 PM

Hmmm, if the conversion to a 24V 250W focusline still does not make my GS1200 as bright as my Bauer T610 projector with 15V/150W Xenophot,
than a Xenpow HID150 conversion looks very interesting to me as well.
If I don't have to wear sunglasses that is.
It fits in the GS1200 lampholder?
The distance to the gate needs to be enlarged too, but not the same 10mm?

Which Bill does this conversion, and does he life in Europe?

I've read somewhere there was also a danger with a lot of UV by using the HID, anyone?

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Kevin Clark
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 978
From: Bapchild, Kent, UK
Registered: May 2004

posted November 30, 2017 03:40 AM

Have you checked and thoroughly cleaned your GS1200 lens Matthieu as there may be more to your darker than the Bauer images than just the lamp source.

When I owned Beaulieus and Bauers (610 & 600) they were bright due to a fast picture pulldown allowing the frame longer in front of the lamp and open shutter sector, especially when combined with their Schneider F1.1 lenses.

My GS1200 halogens were about the same in brightness using an Elmo F1.1 lens and twin blade shutter - however once fully stripped and cleaned the brightness, contrast, all picture elements were better on the Elmo so I am wondering if your lens may be slightly fogged internally?

Even just cleaning the rear element (in front of the film gate) can make a huge difference as it is the part of the lens often forgotten about. Just dusting it off is not good enough - a good coated lens cleaner such as Calacoat and soft lint free cloth are needed to fully remove the muck which builds up in this area and is then effectively baked on by the heat from the lamp.

Regarding the HID 150w trust me you won't need sunglasses it is by no means overkill for the tiny super 8 frame size - I project up to 8 feet wide in my home cinema and it is perfect especially with 'scope films - nice crisp whites, excellent sharp edges, and all the other colours look so much more natural and vibrant than with the warm halogen lamps.

It fits into the GS1200 lampholder which is modified as the lamp is hard wired to the HID power supply - the distance is changed a fraction closer to the frame not farther away (I think) will have a look at the weekend if I get the time for a film show.

Bill Parsons is the Elmo specialist in the UK who modified my machine - it was originally one of the last GS1200 projectors ever made - a GS1200 Telecine model with no dowser / five blade shutter / translucent optical block to reduce the light output / playback only (which is fine by me it is my show projector not needed for recording) and an inbuilt 24fps / 25fps quartz synch pulse board which is great for projecting in synch with DVD / Bluray soundtracks.

Bill added a shutter mechanism, fitted all the HID parts, repaired the internal pulse synch, fitted a two blade shutter, and all the roller mods to so I now have a like new GS1200 HID as I call it.

I am very lucky as Bill lives only 30 miles away from me so I see him quite regularly, however his health is not great at the moment and he is unable to take on any projector repair work until his situation improves. He will let us all know when he is better but for now it is best not to contact him just let him recuperate at his own pace.

I think there are others in the UK who can carry out the mod - I am currently modifying my Elmo 16AA in the same way but cannot take on this type of work for others sorry.

Danger from UV I would imagine is only relevant if you run the projector with the lamp cover off or look directly into the light beam. There are some who feel Xenon and HID lamps may affect films due to their brightness but it is not something I've noticed in many years of projecting 8mm, 16mm and more recently 35mm film.

Kevin

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Matthieu van der Sluis
Master Film Handler

Posts: 373
From: Barendrecht, The Netherlands
Registered: Aug 2017

posted November 30, 2017 09:26 AM

Thank you for all your info.
I will check the lens.
I have 2 of those 1.1 lenses.
Isn't the picture more stable with the 3 bladeshutter, also for 24fps?
I do have zelfmade films as well, but I can use the Beauer for those.

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Brian Fretwell
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1785
From: London, UK
Registered: Jun 2014

posted November 30, 2017 03:46 PM

The 3 blade shutter doesn't make the picture more stable, it just prevents visible flicker when showing at 18 fps or with an extremely bright picture at 24 fps (GS1200 on a 3in preview back projection screen for example)

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Thomas Knappstein
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 124
From: Erwitte, Germany
Registered: Oct 2017

posted November 30, 2017 10:11 PM

If the Picture is unstable the Calwtip and the Sideguides on the Aperture Plate are worn out. Or the Spring Pressure of the Pressing Plate is to less or to strong. It must have about 60g. The Spring Pressunre of the one Sideguide must have about 40g.

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Matthieu van der Sluis
Master Film Handler

Posts: 373
From: Barendrecht, The Netherlands
Registered: Aug 2017

posted December 01, 2017 12:59 AM

Less flicker is what I mean, sorry. (Unstable, why did I use that word to discribe?)
Less flicker is more easy to watch.
If with a 2 blade shutter the 24fps film looks like a 18fps with 3 blade shutter, I'd never use it.
Do most prefer more brightness over less flicker, even when brightness is upgraded whit a 250W lamp or the HID conversion?

I thought of the 2,3 bladeshutter conversion, so I could switch between them to see for myself.

About the faster pulldown in the Beaulieu 708 and Beauer T610 (a very smarth projector I'd say) this is not something the can be changed in the GS1200?
I had the choice between a Beaulieu and the GS1200 when I picked it up (same price), and I choose for the more cinematic look of the GS1200, but now I think I made a mistake.

I wish Bill all the strength to get healthy again.

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Dominique De Bast
Film God

Posts: 4486
From: Brussels, Belgium
Registered: Jun 2013

posted December 01, 2017 01:55 AM

Matthieu, I'm not sure I understand what you mean by : "If with a 2 blade shutter the 24fps film looks like a 18fps with 3 blade shutter, I'd never use it." With a 3 blades shutter, you can watch without flickering any film at 18 or at 24 fps. You should not have flickering at 24 fps with a 2 blades shutter. You will, instead (otherwise all projectors would have only have 2 blades shutters) have flickers at 18 fps with a 2 blades shutters (the darker the print is, the less flickering you will have and in theory you should not notice flickering if you do a projection on a large screen with the projector at a long distance but I have never tried it so I don't know if that's true)

--------------------
Dominique

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Paul Adsett
Film God

Posts: 5003
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted December 01, 2017 09:20 AM

I have converted both my GS1200'S to 2 blade shutters. The increase in brightness is very noticeable. There is no noticeable flicker at 24fps on a normal sized screen with film in the gate, but if you project onto a small screen you can really see flicker at 24fps, even with film in the gate. Flicker is much more apparent if you have the room lights on, or have some daylight in the room.

--------------------
The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj

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Matthieu van der Sluis
Master Film Handler

Posts: 373
From: Barendrecht, The Netherlands
Registered: Aug 2017

posted December 01, 2017 03:12 PM

Ahh, I did not expect it to work this way.
I thought the flicker was more direct, because of a to slow frequency.
So it's the same as with 3D videoprojection with a 3D shutter system? You only see the flicker when there is reference lighting that is stable.
The reflected light from the screen on the ceiling and room is no problem, because it holds the same flicker.

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Thomas Knappstein
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 124
From: Erwitte, Germany
Registered: Oct 2017

posted December 02, 2017 12:22 AM

Mathieu, i have two Blade Shutters in all of my GS 1200 and one ST 1200. In the GS they have 45 Grad and in the ST 1200 40 Grad. I play all my full lengh features with the Sound from DVD. So the Elmo runs with 25 Frames/Second. There is no Flicker on the Screen. And at 24F/S there is no Flicker too. The 18 F/S I play on another ST 1200 with the original three Blade Shutter.

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Matthieu van der Sluis
Master Film Handler

Posts: 373
From: Barendrecht, The Netherlands
Registered: Aug 2017

posted December 02, 2017 05:42 PM

I have to go yhat way as well.
I'll check this company in Germany to see if they will do the HID conversion as well and than they can add the 2 blade shutter along with it.
http://www.ffr-film.de/index.php?page=elmo&language=eng
They do sell a 2,3 blade as well. Is someone formilliar with yhat? Is it an easy handling to change it from 2 to 3 and back?

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Paul Adsett
Film God

Posts: 5003
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted December 02, 2017 06:01 PM

The 2/3 blade, when used in 2-blade mode, requires the overlapping of the 3rd blade over one of the other two blades. Presumably this will produce some off balance and vibration of the shutter. Not sure if this is a significant issue or not.

--------------------
The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj

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Graham Ritchie
Film God

Posts: 4001
From: New Zealand
Registered: Feb 2006

posted December 06, 2017 01:09 AM

Well I can't thank "Thomas" enough.

Tonight I ran my Fantasia 800ft reel, that included the trl, Soundtrack Demo, Pastoral Symphony, Dance of the Hours, Sorcerer's Apprentice. The extra brightness by moving the 250watt lamp back 10mm made a huge difference. The colors looked fantastic, and what better way to demostrate an improvement than running Fantasia... [Cool]

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Thomas Knappstein
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 124
From: Erwitte, Germany
Registered: Oct 2017

posted December 06, 2017 09:14 AM

Graham Do you have the two Blade Shutter and the Elmo 1:1,0 Zoom in use? And Try the Philips Type 13163 ELC A1/259 (24V/250W).

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Matthieu van der Sluis
Master Film Handler

Posts: 373
From: Barendrecht, The Netherlands
Registered: Aug 2017

posted December 06, 2017 09:29 AM

Yes Graham, and while you're doing that, please also sell your Fantasia film to me, hahaha.

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Graham Ritchie
Film God

Posts: 4001
From: New Zealand
Registered: Feb 2006

posted December 06, 2017 11:34 AM

Thomas

I made my own two bladed shutter a few years back for this projector and use the Elmo 1.1 lens, I have had this particular GS1200 projector since the mid 1990s. I made a two bladed for it, and that did improve things, but the biggest improvement was moving the lamp back 10mm [Cool]

I did look at the ESC lamp that later became available. I think it was a Fuji but it only had a life of 25hrs "to short" and that alone plus the price at the time put me of buying one.

I do have another GS1200 and keep that one with its original three bladed for home movies at 18fps. The flicker at 18fps with the two bladed was noticable in light scenes.. the sky etc.

Thomas I will look into the Philips later on, as I still have about twelve of the Osram left. The reason I bought so many Osran 250watt, was because at the cinema we used Osram Xenon lamps and I worked out a special deal with the same importer for the 250watt lamp. [Wink]

Matthieu.....one day! [Wink]

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Matthieu van der Sluis
Master Film Handler

Posts: 373
From: Barendrecht, The Netherlands
Registered: Aug 2017

posted January 01, 2018 02:45 AM

Did you check if the distance was changed closer to the frame with your HID150, Kevin?

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Thomas Knappstein
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 124
From: Erwitte, Germany
Registered: Oct 2017

posted January 01, 2018 10:23 PM

I have another GS 1200 here for repair. There is an Osram 250W ELC Lamp in and the Transformer has 4 Windings more on to push the Voltage. A two Blade Shutter is inside too. This Machine is darker than mine with the Philips ELC Lamp and external Transformer. I think A diming external Transformer regulating from 0 to 26V with The Philips ELC Lamp is the best Way to push the Lightpower on this Projektor. It is a little bit brighter than the original 200W ESC Lamp and cheaper.

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

Posts: 5895
From: Bristol. United Kingdom
Registered: Oct 2007

posted January 02, 2018 05:17 AM

Thomas
Do you think the projector was originally supplied by Elmo with a revised number of windings on its transformer?
Or, has it been modified by an owner/mechanic at a later date?

--------------------
Maurice

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Matthieu van der Sluis
Master Film Handler

Posts: 373
From: Barendrecht, The Netherlands
Registered: Aug 2017

posted January 03, 2018 03:02 AM

Interessting question Maurice.
If it's a MKIII, I might be possible, is it?

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Brian Fretwell
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1785
From: London, UK
Registered: Jun 2014

posted January 03, 2018 03:36 AM

In Film for the Collector Keith Wilton did a comparison of light outputs for various brands and types of lamps in a GS1200. I'll dig it out and post results here soon.

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Thomas Knappstein
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 124
From: Erwitte, Germany
Registered: Oct 2017

posted January 04, 2018 11:25 AM

It was not original supplied by Elmo.
The Windings were made by the Owner himself.
In Swich Position High there are 25,5 Volts on the Lamp Socket with lightning Lamp on.

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Matthieu van der Sluis
Master Film Handler

Posts: 373
From: Barendrecht, The Netherlands
Registered: Aug 2017

posted May 09, 2018 05:33 AM

Is the Ansi Lumen of the Philips ELC 50 Hour lamp changed?
Here it says only 850 Lm.
http://www.dg-lichtshop.de/PH-40975160-ENG
Where can I find the 1500 Lm version of ELC lamps?

[ May 09, 2018, 07:02 AM: Message edited by: Matthieu van der Sluis ]

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