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Author Topic: Regular 8mm Sound???
Brian Hendel
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 - posted January 07, 2018 07:57 PM      Profile for Brian Hendel   Email Brian Hendel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Sitting here watching the Golden Globes AND a regular 8mm sound digest of Snow White Meets the Three Stooges released in 1965 by Americium - a home movie company located right here in New York City. I got to thinking.... how big of a regular 8mm sound marketplace was there back in 1965 (the year I was born btw)? Did people have regular 8mm sound movie cameras? It just seems like a really small niche of buyers. After all, super 8 had just come out. How many Regular 8mm sound consumers could there have been. What do you think?

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Maurice Leakey
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 - posted January 08, 2018 03:54 AM      Profile for Maurice Leakey   Email Maurice Leakey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
1965 was a bit of a disaster year for regular 8 films both silent and sound, because, as you say, this was the year that Kodak introduced Super 8 which forged ahead.

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Allan Broadfield
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 - posted January 08, 2018 05:14 AM      Profile for Allan Broadfield   Author's Homepage   Email Allan Broadfield   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Back in 1965 home movie circles were alive with speculation over the new super 8 guage, and die hards were doubtfull about the benefits.
Main missgivings that i recall were the smaller sprocket holes, which many thought would be too prone to damage. Another feature that some were concerned about was the fact that the picture gate was partly situated in the cartridge itself.
I don't think these worries came to much, and as I was still single (but not for long!), I did the change and was impressed with the improvement, though I think that some of the old die hards might still disagree!

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Brian Fretwell
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 - posted January 08, 2018 07:05 AM      Profile for Brian Fretwell   Email Brian Fretwell   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I don't remember there being any 8mm sound camera until Kodak introduced the Super 8 ones later. There were sync devices for running tape recorders with cameras and projectors, if I recall correctly, but as most standard 8 cameras were clockwork I think these were mainly for 16mm.

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Buck Bito
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 - posted January 08, 2018 08:15 AM      Profile for Buck Bito   Author's Homepage   Email Buck Bito   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Most of the Regular-8mm sound film I see was striped after processing, but we occasionally see film from the Fairchild Cinephonic which was a sync-sound camera using film pre-striped from Fairchild, introduced in 1959. Kodaks's Super-8 Sound system did not come along until 1973.
See:
http://8mmforum.film-tech.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=009568

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Maurice Leakey
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 - posted January 08, 2018 09:33 AM      Profile for Maurice Leakey   Email Maurice Leakey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
My standard 8 films were run on a Eumig P8 Imperial which had facilities for linking with a 1/4" tape recorder. The speed of the tape governed the speed of the projector to keep in reasonable sync, but not lip-sync.

Then came a Eumig S807D dual-gauge sound projector. When filming my wife carried a small cassette recorder for the sound. When the film was finally edited it was sent to have a stripe applied and on its return the cassette sound was added. But still not lip-sync, but quite acceptable.

Later, I bought a Bell & Howell Super 8 sound camera, it had a 30ft lead for the mic. And now, wow, lip-sync at last.

It was a bad day when Kodak announced that they were discontinuing pre-striped cartridges.

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Maurice

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Joe Caruso
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 - posted January 08, 2018 10:46 AM      Profile for Joe Caruso   Email Joe Caruso   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Std 8 Sound was still strong, even Blackhawk reported that sales in-demand were high, even at the outset of Super 8 they continued to offer Std 8 until a year or so later - I'm a die-hard advocate of Std 8 films, sound or silent, it is there the clarity and density of a print is wonderful to behold - Shorty

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Oliver F. R. Feld
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 - posted January 08, 2018 10:58 AM      Profile for Oliver F. R. Feld   Email Oliver F. R. Feld   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
My PSYCHO feature in STD8 is amazing and the soundstripe, too.
Better in picture quality than some Super-8-features.

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Paul Adsett
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 - posted January 08, 2018 02:17 PM      Profile for Paul Adsett     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Like Maurice, I had a Eumig P8 projector with the Phonomat tape synchronizer mounted on the back. It worked very well for music and commentary, but as Maurice points out, not good enough for lip sync.

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Here is the gorgeous looking CirseSound standard 8mm stripe sound projector from 1959. The 56 frames sound advance on this machine became the standard design for all future 8mm sound projectors.

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I am sure Joe is right about the superior print quality of some 8mm prints versus their super 8 counterparts. But, all things being equal, super 8mm prints of course have to be superior to 8mm prints.
For home movies though, as Alan has mentioned, a lot of people myself included, feel that reversal film shot in an 8mm camera looks better than super 8mm camera film, due to the precision of the all metal 8mm camera gate compared with the Kodak plastic super 8mm cartridge, and the superiority of prime lenses versus the zoom lenses fitted to Super 8mm cameras.

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Allan Broadfield
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 - posted January 08, 2018 03:45 PM      Profile for Allan Broadfield   Author's Homepage   Email Allan Broadfield   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I dabbled with the P8 Phonomatic too, attempting to add roughly synced up music and sound effects to package movies.

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Thomas Dafnides
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 - posted January 08, 2018 09:53 PM      Profile for Thomas Dafnides   Email Thomas Dafnides   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Fairchild made their line of Cinephonic 8mm standard sound cameras since 1959 as stated. These were of more robust construction quality than any Super 8 sound camera.
It is a shame that Kodak did not clue Fairchild into the development of Super 8 because in January 1965 (the same month Super 8 was annouced). Fairchild showed a new professional studio 200' sound standard 8mm camera with their revolutionary Hall Sensor recording system at Photokina. This camera as I recall was more impressive looking than any Super 8 sound camera that came later. The camera had the silhouette of a classic Hollywood Mitchell camera . I do not believe the camera ever went into production because of Super 8. If Kodak had revealed to Fairchild their Super 8 plan development , we would of had a 200' Double Super 8 sound camera in 1965. But, of course, then Fairchild would of had the lead in Super 8 sound camera production. Later in 1973, when Kodak introduced their Super 8 sound camera, it featured the Fairchild Hall Sensor recording system which they bought the patent rights for.
Also, in January 1965, Viewlex introduced an industrial Standard 8mm sound projector with large 800' or 1200' reels for educational classroom use. Only a few of these were manufactured because of Super 8.

[ January 09, 2018, 09:17 PM: Message edited by: Thomas Dafnides ]

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Adrian Winchester
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 - posted January 10, 2018 02:00 PM      Profile for Adrian Winchester   Email Adrian Winchester   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Fascinating to read about a Std 8 sound camera - I almost posted to say there was no such thing but I thought I'd better not underestimate the chances of learning something new here!

One notable indication of Std 8 surviving beyond the introduction of Super 8 is the Std 8 releases of films from the years after 1965. E.g. I have a Derann Std 8 b/w print of 'Scars of Dracula', released (in cinemas) in 1970. It appears to be full length, unlike their initial 4 x 400' Super 8 releases (long before the Super 8 full length version). I must get round to selling it sometime!

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Brian Hendel
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 - posted January 10, 2018 07:13 PM      Profile for Brian Hendel   Email Brian Hendel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Adrian - I used to have that Standard 8 feature of Scars of Dracula, too. Once the full length super 8 version came out I sold it.

Going back to that original post - I guess the question is... what projector would people have used in 1965 to play the Regular 8mm Americium releases with the magnetic soundtracks? Did Eumig have a regular 8 sound projector out at the time?

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Simon Wyss
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 - posted January 11, 2018 03:49 AM      Profile for Simon Wyss   Email Simon Wyss   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Eumig’s Mark S line was begun in 1966, the projector was made for both 8-R and 8-S film.

Before you had a number of projectors that were linked to a tape recorder by means of a synchronizer. The designations went from Synchromat to Sonorizer and the like. In that group we have Paillard-Bolex, Nizo, Noris, Eumig, Meopta, Zeiss-Ikon, Pathé, and more. Quarter-inch magnetic tape offers HiFi sound whereas 8mm COMMAG (combined with the film magnetic stripes) always deals with a very stiff material and a narrow track width.

One little group of equipment existed for the SEPMAG principle. The most prominent is the Siemens & Halske 800 that runs Regular-Eight film and identically perforated magnetic film parallel.

An interesting fact is that equal lengths are transported when we look at Regular-8 film at 25 f. p. s. and magnetic tape at 3¾ i. p. s., the perforation pitch being 0.15".

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Dominique De Bast
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 - posted January 11, 2018 04:13 AM      Profile for Dominique De Bast   Email Dominique De Bast   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Heurtier also manufactured magnetic sound 8 mm projectors in the 50's.

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Panayotis A. Carayannis
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 - posted January 11, 2018 05:30 AM      Profile for Panayotis A. Carayannis   Email Panayotis A. Carayannis   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
In the fifties?? I thought standard 8 sound was introduced in 1960!!

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Dominique De Bast
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 - posted January 11, 2018 06:22 AM      Profile for Dominique De Bast   Email Dominique De Bast   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Panayotis, since tri gauges sound projectors were available in the '50s, I assumed that 8 mm was also availble in sound. There is not a lot of informations about Heurtier, so maybe someone could confirm or infirm ?

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Robert Crewdson
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 - posted January 11, 2018 07:18 AM      Profile for Robert Crewdson     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
When I got my first Derann catalogue in 1975, they still had some titles that were only available in Standard 8, I think 'Orders are Orders', a Tony Hancock film from 1954 was one of them, and the reason I didn't buy it. Since then, what few Standard 8 films I have seen have all looked superior to Super 8.

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Buck Bito
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 - posted January 11, 2018 10:45 AM      Profile for Buck Bito   Author's Homepage   Email Buck Bito   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
On the topic of offsets, I see the Eumig dual format machines cited in this thread, but my experience is that these machines had the Super-8 offset to the sound heads of 18 frames. Whereas the 8mm 'standard' was 56 frames (same length of film - 0.7ft - as the 28 frame 16mm magnetic offset), the normal threading of a Eumig dual such as a Eumig S-709 would have the sound over a second and a half early at 24fps. I don't think there were affordable audio delays in those days, so how did folks use the dual-format sound projectors for Standard-8 sound prints?

Asking as the owner of at least 4 true Standard-8 Sound projectors:
-Cirse-Sound
-Calvin Movie-Sound-8 (which appears to have a short offset)
-Kodak Sound-8
-Fairchild HLH-1 (which purportedly has its own offset of 52 frames - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_8_mm_film#Sound - I'm not sure we can trust wikipedia on that number)

[ January 11, 2018, 07:16 PM: Message edited by: Buck Bito ]

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Robert Crewdson
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 - posted January 11, 2018 10:56 AM      Profile for Robert Crewdson     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
There was a guide attached to the gate of the Eumig projectors, and the regular 8 was longer to account for the difference in sound seperation.

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Clive Casey
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 - posted January 11, 2018 11:53 AM      Profile for Clive Casey   Email Clive Casey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
When I started with 8mm back in the 60s, I used to hire standard 8mm films from a library called Filmland, I think it was based in London. Derann took Filmland over so I used to hire standard 8 from Derek. I went to the shop in the 60s, It was on Stourbridge Road then. In the back room they had a 16mm projector set up with a flexible drive running to 2 8mm machines to transfer the sound.
Super 8 came out and Derann started super 8 as well as standard 8. If my memory serves me correct, they had a lot of trouble in the early days with scratching. I think this was due to the early projectors not having a feed sprocket. I think Derann nearly pulled out of super 8 and concentrated on standard 8, but I could be wrong, as they certainly went into super 8 in a big way later on. Those were the days, what a shame they are probably gone forever.
Regards to all,
Clive

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Osi Osgood
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 - posted January 11, 2018 12:07 PM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage   Email Osi Osgood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Panayotis ....

Standard 8mm was available (package films that it) since the late 30's!

... and I must concur with my learned colleague, Shorty, the image quality of the standard 8mm in almost any case, (especially with the Blackhawks), outshines the super 8 prints!

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Buck Bito
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quote:
posted January 11, 2018 10:56 AM - Robert Crewdson
There was a guide attached to the gate of the Eumig projectors, and the regular 8 was longer to account for the difference in sound seperation.

Does anyone have an image of this Eumig Standard-8 Sound threading guide apparatus?
I have never received one with any of my Eumigs...

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Patrick Walsh
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 - posted January 12, 2018 03:12 PM      Profile for Patrick Walsh   Email Patrick Walsh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The Calvin STD 8mm sound projector is a holy grail of mine, have been searching for years for one, they have large reel capacity, I believ they where a short lived line produced by Calvin whom are most famous for their Movie-Mite line of 16mm sound projectors and producing some great education and business films.

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Robert Crewdson
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 - posted January 12, 2018 04:00 PM      Profile for Robert Crewdson     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
There are a few owners of the Eumig 810D on here and I'm wondering if they had the same issue I had. The first time i threaded a Standard 8 film it crumpled up like a concertina after it left the gate, it wouldn't continue to feed. The plastic guide attached to the gate was longer than the Super 8 version, so I cut it to the same length, and I was able to watch the film. The only problem is that I wouldn't be ably to project regular 8 sound films due to the difference in sound
seperation . I did post on the subject some years ago, unfortunately the images from that time don't show. http://8mmforum.film-tech.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=008529

Buck, it appears your model is different from mine; I have just been informed by someone who has one, that the loop markings are shown on the casing.

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