8mm Forum: Request: Fixing sound sync on a couple Derann Disney shorts

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Topic: Request: Fixing sound sync on a couple Derann Disney shorts

Iman Yahya
Film Handler

Posts: 65
From: London, UK
Registered: Mar 2017

posted May 09, 2018 11:13 AM

Recently received a couple of Derann Disney Silly Symphonies (LULLABY LAND and BROKEN TOYS) in absolutely beautiful shape, excellent colour with hardly any lines or wear at all. I quickly realised why they seemed to have been barely projected, the soundtracks were delayed off sync by about 1 or 2 seconds!

Interestingly, I popped my DVD copy of LULLABY LAND and noticed the soundtrack there has odd pops and clicks not present on my print’s track and actually sounds splicey in a few sections. In fact, the sync appears to be thrown slightly off there as well in the middle of the cartoon! I suspect it may be better to just transfer the soundtrack off the prints then re-record them back with fixed sync. Just curious if anyone here in the UK can do such a re-record? (I’m aware of Alberto’s new service but thought it couldn’t hurt to ask if there were any more local options).

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Nantawat Kittiwarakul
Master Film Handler

Posts: 280
From: Rajburana, Bangkok, Thailand
Registered: Aug 2017

posted May 09, 2018 11:03 PM

Just a wild/crude solution that I can only think of, for now. [Roll Eyes]

1.Attain a projector with really good audio playback/record AND DARN STEADY SPEED.
2.Record the audio onto your PC/notebook. Might be a good chance to do some audio cleanup if need.
3.Record the audio back to the film,now in sync. (Hence the need for a dead steady speed projector)

This should work in theory,at least. If anything goes disastrous you still have the audio copy in your computer,plus a small chance to remedy the situation [Razz]

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Just a lone collector from a faraway land...

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Iman Yahya
Film Handler

Posts: 65
From: London, UK
Registered: Mar 2017

posted May 10, 2018 02:26 AM

I was considering going that route actually, since I don't have to achieve perfect sync with an external DVD source.

A little unsure whether my Sankyo has that DARN STEADY SPEED, I noticed recently it actually seems to be playing back slightly faster than 24fps (but well below 25fps [Razz]

). I guess it can't hurt to try experimenting with recording on the balance stripe. Just need to buy the right cables at some point.

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Nantawat Kittiwarakul
Master Film Handler

Posts: 280
From: Rajburana, Bangkok, Thailand
Registered: Aug 2017

posted May 10, 2018 08:26 PM

AFAIK most if not all Saykyos were driven by permanent magnet dc motor. Some higher end model would even have some sort of self-regulated speed control,making the speed very consistent FOR NORMAL PROJECTION.

But is it good enough for lip-sync dubbing? I honestly don't know. [Confused]

Or you may try checking it yourself by recording from the same test reel (anything with audio) several times,then comparing the waveform from each recordings. If the length difference from each recordings (there'll be certainly some presented no matter what) are small enough - say less than 0.5 seconds per 10 minutes,you may be OK with that. [Wink]

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Just a lone collector from a faraway land...

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Maurizio Di Cintio
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 977
From: Ortona, Italy
Registered: Jan 2004

posted May 11, 2018 08:18 AM

So, if I got it right, you do not want to lift the sound from a DVD and transfer it onto your prints because the DVD sound quality is worse than the S/8 prints??!!!
Regardless, lifting the sound from the prints, re-sync it and retransfer it is certainly feasible, but you need a quartzed projector for absolute consistent speed throughout the whole process; this will ensure absence of sound drifting and/or wow of any kind from start to finish. Using a quartzed GS 1200 will also ensure you get no mechanical interference from the claw movement (some Sankyo’s are famous for this), because GS have an extra rubber roller before the sound chute, isolating film from all residual vibrations. In any case the resulting sound quality will be a little lower than before the process since it always more than one generation. This, however should be hardly perceivable, and will be mainly noticeable with a slight increase in background hissing noise.
If you want, I can do this job for you: it will take about 1 hr and a half included final check for the whole duration of the films (assuming they are on 2 200’ spools). PM me if interested. Kindest regards.

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Maurizio

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Iman Yahya
Film Handler

Posts: 65
From: London, UK
Registered: Mar 2017

posted May 11, 2018 09:35 AM

Hi Maurizio,

For LULLABY LAND, the sound quality isn’t necessarily worse on my DVD copy (Disney Treasures Silly Symphonies Volume 1) but a few parts of the DVD soundtrack seem abnormally “splicy” for lack of a better term, like a skipping record at times. As a result, there seemed to be a section in the middle where the soundtrack drifts out of sync and it seems they tried to loop a small section of music to compensate for that. The source material for the S8 soundtrack has no such issues, it just seems to be out of sync by a consistent amount throughout. I suppose I could try to find an alternate copy on VHS, laserdisc or 16mm but I’d be happy to use the soundtrack off the print even with a slight loss in quality after the re-record.

I *think* I could get away with using the DVD soundtrack I have for BROKEN TOYS. Don’t recall any issues on that one.

In any case, I’ll send a PM later today [Smile]

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Winbert Hutahaean
Film God

Posts: 5468
From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
Registered: Jun 2003

posted May 11, 2018 11:07 AM

They are 7 minutes each, right?

My experience tells recording sound with oridinary projector for 7 minutes show may result some drift but it will not that bad, especially for a cartoon that has little dialog.

More over if you take the original sound from your Sankyo to a computer and record back to the same projector...the speed will just the same no matter how slow/fast is the motor.

So I guess you can have a try.

Cheers,

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Winbert

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Maurizio Di Cintio
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 977
From: Ortona, Italy
Registered: Jan 2004

posted May 11, 2018 04:06 PM

Of course he can have a try. Problem is according to my experience (and I have redubbed dozens of prints ranging from a few minutes to hours’ duration), you can never rest on the laurels when it comes to syncing. Before switching to an Elmo GS with sync (quartz) box, I used different machines to re-dub features and my own films. I did all sorts of things, trial and error and believe me any projector that is not quartzed WILL actually go out of sync at some point: it’s not a matter of “if”, it’s a matter of “when” ; and it may weel be under 3 minutes.
So yes this guy can have a try and be successful… What if he isn’t? He’ll have destroyed the most convenient source material he could use; of course he’ll still have a copy saved on his computer, but taken from his Sankyo (which are excellent machines but not more speed-consistent than others), thus affected by imperceptible fluctuations that will probably make it impossible to re-sync unless you undertake a conspicuous job of “stretch & push” said material. Not the best of scenarios. AND time-consuming. And yes, maybe there is no lip-sync requirements but what if there is a sudden and short noise, like a heavy object being dropped? That requires frame accurate syncing. The system used by people who have been doing this kind of job for years now, is such that if the workflow is THE right one, you’ll have a spot – on sync in cases such as the above-mentioned example: no need to alter the speed with a trimmer (which Sankyo’s only have in the innards), no resulting wow, no need to go back and correct the mistake… No possible damage to film.
The film is screened three times for:
1) Digital capture to computer
2) Transfer back to film after the necessary alterations have been done
3) Final check for the entire duration of the film
What I mean with alteration in THIS case is very easy: unlocking the sound from the images on NLE and move the former ones so that eventually they’ll match with the latter ones. Other systems are – to me – a gamble: he might be successful (as per usual gambles) or regret going the easy way. Of course the choice is his very own, but it should be based on information as complete as possible.

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Maurizio

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Brian Fretwell
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1785
From: London, UK
Registered: Jun 2014

posted May 12, 2018 03:29 AM

If, as he suggests he tries this on the balance stripe he won't damage the original. I would think that if it can be played back from the balance stripe OK that it wouldn't be necessary to alter the main stripe recording. An in-sync transfer back to the main stripe (if his model of projector can do that) would only result in a lower quality recording anyway.

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Maurizio Di Cintio
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 977
From: Ortona, Italy
Registered: Jan 2004

posted May 29, 2018 09:28 AM

Sorry for reviving this old post but I've just learnt that when it comes to private messaging, one cannot write a new one until the other member has read the previous one. So please Iman, read and possibly add a regular email address so we can keep in touch regardless the Forum's PM.

Greetings!!!

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Maurizio

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Winbert Hutahaean
Film God

Posts: 5468
From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
Registered: Jun 2003

posted May 30, 2018 05:36 AM

quote:
Sorry for reviving this old post but I've just learnt that when it comes to private messaging, one cannot write a new one until the other member has read the previous one.

That is true Maurizio, but you can still send a new message to the same person through the sending mail feature. Only the new mail will be standing alone apart from your previous message.

Have a try.

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Winbert

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